Made my first six-figure year off of 356 people on my email list. So it's not the quantity at all. You don't need 5,000 people. You don't need 10,000 people. You need 356 quality people who are willing to spend whatever it is that you're you're, you know, you're selling, and that's completely possible. I mean, I've done it, and I've shown other people that they can do it as well.” - Jennie Wright
Joe Casabona: Just this morning, I watched an incredibly interesting video that sent me down a rabbit hole. A 19-year old kid was arm wrestling against a massive body builder and won pretty easily. Thinking that this could have been rigged or it's a fake video (you never know with AI these days), I looked for other matches that this fellow, Maxim (appears to be his name) competed in, and he won against bigger guys a lot.
See, while he is very strong, just he doesn't look as big as the other guys. Maxim also has great technique. And I know you're wondering, what does this have to do with lead generation?
Well, as you'll hear from our guest, Jennie Wright, you don't need a massive list to build your business. You don't need to be smarmy. You don't need to be showy. You just need to have good technique and forge good relationships. And that's what we talk about today.
Look for these top takeaways.
- Consistency is key in lead generation, and this is not consistently generate leads. That's a little bit too easily said than done. Right? Instead, you should create a plan that aligns with your end goal and focus on activities that will give you the best results within your available time and resources.
- You should leverage other people's audiences by appearing as a guest on podcasts, speaking at summits, and participating in what Jennie calls bundles, which is these product bundles that you go in on with other creators to create a ton of value for the people who are buying or downloading them. This is an effective way to grow your credibility and reach new potential leads.In fact, I share in the interview that I participated in a virtual summit recently that netted me 50 new subscribers, and I usually average like 20 a week.
- And finally, you need to nurture your leads authentically by setting expectations, providing value, and building trust. Avoid being too salesy and focus on creating genuine relationships with your audience. When someone joins your list, let them know what they can expect, how they can expect it, and you'll build that trust. If you just try to sell to them right off the bat, they're going to put their guard up.
This was a really eye opening episode for me. In fact, I didn't even take that many notes, which I usually do because I was really interested in everything Jennie had to say. And so I think you'll really enjoy this episode too. You can find all of the show notes over at [streamlined.fm/423] or in your podcast player.
In Streamlined Solopreneur accelerated, the members only version of the show, we're going to talk about “how to” mix it up when you do a lot of podcasts. Obviously, Jennie and I both do a lot of podcast guesting, and we don't wanna tell the same story over and over again. We want to surprise and delight our potential new listeners or new subscribers, and so we get into techniques about how to do that. So, without further ado, let's get into the intro and then the interview.
Welcome to the Streamlined Solopreneur. A show for busy solopreneurs to help you improve your systems and processes so you can build a business while spending your time the way you want. I know you're busy, so let's get started.
Okay. I'm here with Jennie Wright, an expert in email list growth and lead generation. Jennie, how are you today?
Jennie Wright: I'm doing amazing. How are you?
Joe Casabona: I'm great. I'm so excited to talk to you about this. And so, therefore, I'd love to dive right in. I wanna level set. What is lead generation?
Jennie Wright: Good question. I actually love the fact that you're level setting this out. Lead gen is the procurement or the acquiring of potential leads, potential customers, potential clients into your business through means usually of a lead magnet, something where people can enter their name in email and then receive something in return or sign up for a newsletter. You're basically trying to get them off of social, off of your website, off of whatever ethos, and into your ecosystem.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. And that's really important. Right? Like, because you, I mean, I've been on Twitter since April 1, 2007. Yeah. I like to say that that day, I was definitely the April fool. Though Twitter has been really good to me largely, but it's really hard to sell on Twitter. Right? Like, it used to be a little easier, but you're not getting the visibility and impact that you're getting from your own ecosystem. Right?
Jennie Wright: Absolutely. If you think about it, it's very, I mean, social media in itself is supposed to be a very busy, high-energy ecosystem, and you're supposed to stay in that by consuming content. But you're not always consuming the same person's content. You're not always gonna binge that person's content. If we can get them out of social media and into our ecosystem, our email marketing, our blog, you know, and so on, they're consuming our content on a regular basis, and we can create what I call a transfer of credibility from whomever they've been listening to on a regular basis over to us. Right? And then we can also, I mean, then this is something I love to do, even though I do list building and lead generation as a thing. One of my particular skills is to find where areas where people are leaking out of your ecosystem and then plugging those holes so they don't.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. That's a really good point. Right? Because some, you know, some concern that I have, and I'm gonna guess my listeners have and maybe your customers have, is what if they just sign up for my list for the free thing and then bounce? Is that, and so, like, is that feels like a leak that maybe could be plugged up by providing more value. Or…
Jennie Wright: Mhmm. There's a ton of reasons why that happens. If done right, the lead magnet and everything that encompasses around it in your, you know, ecosystem that we're talking about should prevent that sort of, like, you know, run and dump kind of thing, like grab it and go.
Joe Casabona: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. And that makes sense. And I guess, like, I mean, part of it is, like, if they were always gonna do that, they were never gonna buy from you anyway. But…
Jennie Wright: Completely.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. But, like, you know, we wanna try to prevent that anyway. Right? It's like, you know, leaky faucet might happen that doesn't mean run your water all night.
Jennie Wright: Totally. Yeah.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. Cool. So, I love that we've level set a little bit here. Let's talk about some challenges in lead generation. Right? Because, again, I like, while you were talking, I imagined, like, someone busking on a subway platform. It's like just like 100 of maybe thousands of people throughout the day walking past you, hearing you, saw me. Oh, like, that's pretty good, and then, like, never thinking about you again. Right? And maybe some people throw you a couple of bucks or some change, but, very hard to make a living that way. Right?
Jennie Wright: Yeah. Fair enough.
Joe Casabona: So, what are some, what are some of the biggest lead generation challenges that you see with solopreneurs?
Jennie Wright: The biggest one I think is consistency. There's a lot of, lack of consistency, not sharing, not not being sure what the right cadence should be for your lead gen. Right? So am I doing too much? Am I doing too little? Am I sending too, any too many emails once they're on my list? So the consistency piece is huge.
The other thing is overwhelm. A lot of people get overwhelmed at the idea of doing lead generation in general. So they're like, I'm just gonna put a newsletter box on my website, and I'm gonna hope and pray that's gonna work.
Joe Casabona: Mhmm.
Jennie Wright: You know? And so one of the things that I think is one of the biggest challenges besides consistency is everything pointing in the same direction. And that's where you have to make sure that the link on your Instagram is going to your Linktree or some page where consistently the same information appears as would if you reference something off of a podcast or if people land on your website and wanna get resources. Right? So we should be able to find pretty much the same things, and there should always be, in my opinion, either a strong call to action or soft call to action. And when we're looking at lead generation and what people are struggling with, it's I don't know what I should have on there. I don't know how often I should be talking about it, and so on. And I think there's just a lot of ambiguity in that space.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. Interesting. So you mentioned consistency, right, which is a thing that content creators talk about all the time. I said, like, oh, you should be consistent in your podcast, and that doesn't mean you need to publish multiple times a week or even once a week. You just need to do it on a predictable schedule.
Jennie Wright: Mhmm.
Joe Casabona: What does consistently look like, consistency look like with lead generation? Is it like, oh, like, is it saying join my list? I have this lead. I have this lead mag, well, you wouldn't say I have a lead magnet, but you'd say I have this free resource or whatever. Or, is there, like, another aspect that I'm not seeing?
Jennie Wright: You're seeing the right thing, but I'm gonna recommend that we pull it back a little bit. Just go a little bit bigger picture. Your lead gen should always be working backwards from your end goal. And that should be, I'm gonna launch my brand new, or I'm gonna launch my biggest course, or I'm gonna launch something in September as an example.
Looking at your current email list and your lead generation at the moment, even if that is absolutely 0, like, you have nobody on your list and nobody on your social, nothing, You still have to work backwards. I wanna launch this thing in September. What do I have to do between now and then to grow an audience, build up my email list, engage the email list I already have that I may have forgotten about and haven't talked to in a long time? Consistency. What do I have to do? And you plan backwards like that. That is, that's gonna get you a better, more effective result than just saying, I'm gonna send an email every week, and I'm going to post on social media. I have this lead magnet, and I'm gonna try and join summits.
So, to fulfill that goal, that September goal, if I put it out there, then we should look at the, between today and that launch as your runway. What activities can you do within that runway that are gonna give you the best bang for your buck so that your launch is successful? Lead generation, connection, visibility, networking, those types of things.
And the biggest things that I would recommend people do are guest podcasting. Phenomenal way to get in front of other people's audiences. So if you don't have your own audience, or if your audience is old and stale and hasn't really been connecting, or they don't convert, you have to focus on getting other people's audiences.
So guest podcasting, guest speaking on summits. Right? Guest speaking on anything you can get your hands on basically online or in person. If you wanna, if you prefer to do in person, but online gets you a bigger audience.
And then if you have the bandwidth and the ability, hosting your own list building and lead generation is essential. So depending on your abilities, and I work with a lot of people who have overwhelm, anxiety, people who are neurodiverse. And so you can't, I don't wanna create overwhelm. I want to make it fit where they are, and I don't like to prescribe a whole plan. So if that's the case and that's a lot of entrepreneurs, then we start with something that feels comfortable and cozy, and then we can build on that. So that could be a 3-day challenge. That could be a small mini audio summit. That could be a full blown summit. That could be a, you know, a 30-day content sprint, which I'm actually working on with somebody right now. Things like that so that we fit the lead generation to the person's abilities, opportunities, and strengths.
Joe Casabona: I love that. And I'm trying to say that last because I say it a lot on this show. (I actually have a post it note behind me that says stop saying I love that) But that's, I mean, first of all, it feels very anti hustle culture to me, which I'm like, I'm old school hating anti hustle culture, like, when Gary V was talking about it. And now, like, it's just like Alex Hormozi or whoever's talking about it now.
Jennie Wright: Yeah.
Joe Casabona: So that feels great. And then I love that you put context around it's not just, like, build your list. It's like your list is a vehicle for you, and you need to get people in that vehicle. And so…
Jennie Wright: Willingly.
Joe Casabona: I think, like, in the creator space, people are just like, oh, I need a big mailing list and then it'll get sponsored. But when you're a solopreneur, when you have a business to run, you're selling something else. Right? Like, I get people on my list, and then they go into a welcome sequence that tells them how I helped people. I coached people into making them a more consistent podcaster.
And, like, they love their podcast, and so they wanted to keep doing it, but they couldn't. And that has worked for me. Right? People are, I'm interested. Let me know. And so, like, there's that, there is this end goal in mind. Right? And so if you're launching a product, like you said, you have this runway or a road map that you should try to fill. I think that that's crucially important. It's not just, like, consistently yell from the rooftop, join my list. It's consistently be where your potential audience is
Jennie Wright: Mhmm.
Joe Casabona: And then ask them after providing value to join your list and get more value.
Jennie Wright: Yeah. There's actually something that I talk about, and it's important. It's creating your lead gen sort of strategy around providing a ton of value, and then only when you feel like you've done that, asking for you know, you kinda deposit $5 in the relationship bank, and then you kinda wanna just, like, take out a buck here and there. You know what I mean? You never wanna overextend that. And it has to be real relationship building. That's essential. The right, I mean, I made my first six-figure year off of 356 people on my email list.
Joe Casabona: Wow.
Jennie Wright: So, it's not the quantity at all. You don't need 5,000 people. You don't need 10,000 people. You need 356 quality people who are willing to spend whatever it is that you're you're, you know, you're selling. So, and that's completely possible. I mean, I've done it, and I've shown other people that they can do it as well. So it's not the quality, it's not the quantity, and I, you know, back in the day, I'm sure you remember this because you've been around for a bit too. People are like, oh, you can't be on my podcast or you can't be on my summit unless you have a 5,000 person email list. I think that's absolutely bogus, and I think it's elitist, and I hate it.
Joe Casabona: Yep. That, what that screams to me is I'm not here to serve other people. I'm here to serve me.
Jennie Wright: Exactly. It's so self-serving. There's no relationship building in that, and it's, you know, it's transactional, and I hate transactional relationships. I really like the, you know, let's build a, let's build an actual online friendship or whatever you wanna call it, and then be of service to each other. Right? And if you put that out there, I really do believe that if you put out good, you receive good. And I think it's super important.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. And like, not for nothing, but your audience can tell. Right? Like, when I get the scam calls from, like, Patrick McJohnson, trying to asking me about my car accident in the last 2 years, I know the guy's name isn't Patrick McJohnson, and I know he's not actually calling from an insurance company. And I didn't have a car accident in the last 2 years. I know he's trying to scam me, right, versus, you know, actually forming a relationship with somebody and understanding what they do and how we can help each other, your audience can tell when you're in it just for you. Because it's very me focused. It's not very audience focused.
So, I love that. Just said it again. That's like my, now. So I wanna ask, you touched on mindset a little bit. Right? But people do find it overwhelming because I think it is really like the culture. It's like I have a list of this many people or, I have a bajillion million followers on Instagram, and they're all clicking my affiliate link or whatever.
If you are starting with and I've been building my list for, like, a long time, and I did switch. Right? This is a small tangent, a little side road. I switched my audience a couple years ago from Web Developers to podcasters, specifically, right for my coaching services. And I was basically starting from scratch.
Jennie Wright: Mhmm.
Joe Casabona: And so I'm around, like, 1450 people right now. Pretty good. I got, like, 50 from Ecamm Live's recent summit, which is wild.
Jennie Wright: Nice.
Joe Casabona: I could not, I could not believe it. Power of summits. But, it feels really hard and overwhelming for me to build my list. So, how can I, and maybe some of the listeners who feel that way shift their mindset from this is something I have to do to this is something I get to do?
Jennie Wright: That's an excellent question. And I will not say that I have a ton of experience in the mindset space. I am not. That's not my niche. But I will tell you that as somebody who easily got into overwhelm and has had to mindset shift a ton in the past decade, I look at it as this.
I have a gift, or an ability, or a skill, and by not growing my audience and sharing that with others, I am robbing them of what I do well, and I'm opening the door for people who want to be a little bit spammy and scammy to fill the space. So, I have a mission. I should be talking about this thing. You know? I'm known and, Joe, you might not even know this, but I'm known for online summits. Like, I've produced about 380 of them. And back in the day when they first started, there was a spammy scammy way of doing it, and I was like, this sucks. I'm not doing this. And so I created my own way, and I said, okay. This is like summits 2.0. We're gonna do it differently. Drop the 5,000 person list, create, you know, create connections, make them shorter, make them more interesting, and so on.
So to your point, I think it's about looking at what we can put into the world, what we can help people with. And then in terms of the overall piece, this is my answer always. Be a guest. Right? So you were just on Ecamm summit. You got 50 registrations to your lead magnet. I am on a summit right now and, as a guest, and I've gotten in the past 8 days about a 150 registrations. Okay? I have a bundle that I'm on next week that I was on last year. I know that I'm gonna get another 200 approximately from that.
So, I participate and I apply to events that I know are gonna support and put me in front of my ideal client, which means I have a good lead magnet, I have a good follow-up sequence, I make a good offer, I close sales. And that's not very overwhelming because if you wanna be on an, if you wanna be on a summit or a bundle, it's like an hour of your time. Right? Either you do a 30-minute interview, or you provide a gift, and you promote it. It's really a lot less overwhelm than hosting your own, and you might not be ready for hosting your own. You might at some point, you know, but if you're on 5 or 6 summits or events, and then add in the podcasting and things like that in a 6 month span, you could be adding a 1,000 people to your list.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. Yes. This is, I'm gonna ask you later how we find events because this is really good. I think what I wanna touch on here before we take a break for our sponsors is there's, oh, there's this, it feels like, at least in my mind, there's a push and pull, right, between I wrote of one of my, like, cornerstone pieces of content a few years ago when I was still in the WordPress space was, we need to pay speakers. Right? WordCamps never pay speakers, and then the virtuals maybe now feel free to push back on this, but maybe this is the thing that you thought was the wrong way to do it.
For a while, every summit or virtual event that I,= applied to was like, well, we're not gonna pay you. We're gonna, you're gonna use your affiliate link. Also, you need to promote it 4 times to your list, and you need to do this and that. And it just felt like, so I'm bringing the content and the marketing. What if I'm promoting it to my list, what's my benefit? But the way you just framed it was like, yeah, it's maybe like, if you're putting a lot of time into your talk and you're doing a talk, maybe it's like a couple of hours of your time. But I happily traded that for a talk I can reuse, by the way. And fit like, 50 new sign ups for me is like, 200% more than I usually get in a week, and I got it in a day. So…
Jennie Wright: Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So that's a, there's a bit of a mindset shift. Right? So that what you said before, you know, I'm bringing the marketing. I'm bringing the people. And, yes, that exists. Okay?
With an online summit, the goal is exposure. And to get that first 1,000 leads or your next 1,000 leads like we're talking about, you have to be willing to accept a couple of things. 1, you're not gonna get paid for online summits. There's no budget for them unless, and I do these too, is I do pay speakers if we can do sponsorships.
So I'm right now, I'm actually planning a summit in, there's a space. What is it? What do you call it? It's sort of like a charitable space. And we're planning a summit. We're paying the speakers, but we're getting sponsorships where we're actually going to companies and saying, we're hosting this event. If you'd like your products or whatever in front of a group, we have potentially an audience of x size. We have a $10,000 sponsorship, a $15,000, a 2,000, a 500. Which one would you like? We've already got a commitment of about 25,000 so far. We're trying to go for 50, which means we can pay our speakers 2 grand each. Right?
Joe Casabona: Yeah.
Jennie Wright: That’s an online event, which is great. I mean, and they're (excuse me) the speakers are doing a 20-minute interview, and they're promoting. But I'm gonna, I wanna talk about that promotion piece, like, you have to promote it 4 times and stuff that fits into that 5,000 person email list that I think is scuzzy.
So here's how I approach it. I will come and say, Joe, I'd love to have you on my summit. I think you're an amazing speaker. I'd love to have this collaboration. I am asking all speakers to promote, but I'd like to ask you, what do you feel comfortable with in terms of promotion?
Joe Casabona: Yeah. And that's the framing. Right? I am happy to tell my list that I'm speaking at an event. I always do. But it's really like the, you have to do x, y, and z. And I'm like, what are these requirements? Well…
Jennie Wright: You and I talked a little bit before we hit record that when none, neither one of us like the oversight and the ridiculous ask. That's a ridiculous ask.
Joe Casabona: Right.
Jennie Wright: So doesn't it feel better if I say, what are you willing to do? What feels comfortable for you? And then you go, okay. Yeah. This feel like somebody asked my permission.
Joe Casabona: Right. Which is the same approach I take with guests. Right? Like, there are some people who are like they make you check the box when you go on their podcast that you're like, I will share this to my list and on social. And I'm like, this feels like a contract, but, like, when my guest episodes come out, I say, hey, your episode is live. I would love and appreciate if you shared it. But, like, I'm never gonna follow-up with that. Here's a link. My guests, by the way, are so much better at sharing my episodes on social media than I am. So, like, shout out to all my guests. They're like, they're sharing it on LinkedIn, and like, I don't, I'm really bad at this game. But, again, I'm not making them. That's not their, you know, I view like, you're coming on the show, and you're providing already in the 20-minutes we've been recording, you've provided a ton of value. That's all I can really ask. Right?
And so I love your framing and your approach. Because on the other side, I am happy to share it with people that I'm, hey. I shared that I was speaking at the Ecamm Live event, right? The Ecamm Leap Into Tools and Tactics. Ecamm Live is the product. But, again, if, like, if they were like, yeah, you have to share this 400 times to whoever and whoever. I'm like, that would probably leave a bad taste in my mouth. And…
Jennie Wright: And that's not how Katie and Doc, like, run things.
Joe Casabona: They're like, the nicest and generous people.
Jennie Wright: But don't you feel encouraged by their niceness and their sort of, like, friendship or, you know, the networking that you can create and things like that? Don't you feel compelled then to promote? Because that's…
Joe Casabona: That's exactly right.
Jennie Wright: Compelled versus controlled or whatever word. I'm not sure. But, yeah. It just feels more natural, and you want to do it.
Joe Casabona: There is another word there, and I'm blanking on it. Compelled versus coerced. That's it.
Jennie Wright: Coerced. Thank you.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. Yeah. I was like, well, I mean, Katie asked me to do it, so, of course, I'll do it. Like, so yeah. Like the, and that's the feeling that you want, and you can have that. Right? So and then it's really good.
I also do wanna point out, like, yes. If an event is not sponsored, if it's just, like, bootstrapped or whatever, like, first of all, I very rarely get paid to speak. And so it's, this is not like a hard and fast rule for me. I recognize the value, but, yeah, like, if someone's selling 5 figure, like, low to mid 5 figure sponsorship packages, and then someone's like, you have to do an hour talk in a workshop and think of all the exposure you get. I'm like, well, where is that money going? So that's really the alarm that goes off in my head, the bell that goes off in my head.
Okay. Awesome. I love everything that we've talked about here so far. I'm gonna, I wanna push back on one thing, though. But first, we're gonna take a quick break for our sponsors.
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Joe Casabona: And we're back. So the thing I wanted to push back on, you know, I used, I've been a Web Developer since 2000. Right?
Jennie Wright: Wow.
Joe Casabona: My first client was my church, and they came to me. And they're like, we'll pay you. And I'm like, great. This was easy. Then all my friends' parents who had businesses came to me. So my business was largely word-of-mouth. Like, can’t, that's worked for me in the past? Can't I just keep doing that?
Jennie Wright: Yes. And you can. However, in weird times, those word-of-mouth people can dry up. So, I find the word-of-mouth is either, it's either feast or famine, and creating consistency is what we're trying to create with our lead gen, so that in any given moment, if your biggest referral partner is no longer able to refer you or has just run out of, you know, juice in terms of who they can refer you to, you still have something to fall back on.
Additionally, you benefit from continuously doing things like networking and, growing those relationships in your lead gen, because your next referral partner is most likely in your email list. I have people in my email list, and I'm not, and by the way, I'm one of these people that does not kick people off my list if they don't open my emails or whatever.
Joe Casabona: Yeah.
Jennie Wright: Simply because I have people who sit on my email list dormant. Life is happening for them in whatever way, shape, or form. And then 2 years later, they're like, hey, I wanna work with you, or, I know so and so, and they would be a perfect fit, and then they connect me with that person. I'm like, absolutely. That's awesome. I don't mind paying for that person to sit on my list at all. And so, yes, and word-of-mouth is great.
My business is word-of-mouth. I actually weirdly enough, Joe, you're not gonna believe this, my partner was in the car driving to go play golf. He was listening to a podcast in the car, and it was a pretty big podcast. I was shocked. And the person says, yeah. When it comes to list building and lead gen, you know, there's Jennie Wright, the summit queen. And I think he almost drove off the road. He's like, wow. He's like, he comes at you.You're not gonna believe who I heard this from. So but that's somebody that I've never met, Joe. I've never even met these people. I've never been on their podcast. I don't even know them. But through word-of-mouth and networking and also seeing me consistently build my list and lead gen, those people found me, and I came up in a conversation on a podcast, which then sent traffic to my website, by the way.
Joe Casabona: Nice.
Jennie Wright: Right? So, yeah. It's full circle. It's full circle. So, yes, word-of-mouth does work, but it, you need a backup method, and consistency to actually scale.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. It's what's that theory that, like, we can only connect to, like, 50 people, or maybe it's like, 200 people? It's a very finite amount of people. Right? And so, like, if we are only relying on those sort of word-of-mouth relationships, then our business is going to be very finite. And, like, I don't wanna scale to, like, a bunch of employees and 1,000,000 of dollars. I very much built a business that allows me to take this coming Friday off so that I can go to my kids' career day and bring my green screen and like, have some fun with kids and show them the cool stuff that you can do with technology. But also, you know, I gotta put food on the table like, I do need to support my family.
And almost I mean, maybe, like, if ChatGPT were summarizing what you just said here, it's almost like you can't have word-of-mouth unless people know who you are. Right? Like, people can't recommend what they don't know. And yeah. So getting out there, building your list just increases the surface area of potential word-of-mouth recommendations.
Jennie Wright: I'm jealous that you said that more eloquently than me.
Joe Casabona: I talk a lot. My people are always like, your kids are so, like, they're so great at talking for their age. And I'm like, yeah. It's because their dad never stops talking, so they hear a lot of words throughout the day.
But, yeah, this is, I think that's fantastic and important. And I wanna key in on something you said here that you don't mind paying for people sitting on your list because this has been, like, a very, like, in the zeitgeist sort of thing lately, like, hey, here's how to set up an automation to clean up your list. Right? And it's probably because certain tools, including the one I use and I love, you know, sometimes it feels like you're getting raked over the coals once you hit a certain level.
Jennie Wright: Oh, yeah.
Joe Casabona: And I know that I use ConvertKit, and I know that they're doing things to make it easier for people. Right? Like, cheaper for people. But, you know, I feel like that technique came out of the idea that, like, why am I paying 100 of dollars a month for people who don't appear to be engaged? But, you know, you gotta look at the slow play. Right?
Jennie Wright: It's a long game. I've been doing this for 12 years. Right? I still have people on my list that are there since I was on Aweber. You know? Or, and then I moved from Aweber to, I was on ConvertKit for a bit, and then I moved to ActiveCampaign. So I've had people who've done the jump with me 3 times. Right? And they've been along, they've been along for the ride.
And new people come in, and there's always attrition. Right? That's why you should always be list building because you always have attrition. People leaving your list and unsubscribes, and, you know, I wish them well and send them off on their day. I believe in creating, because I love technology, and I love automation. I do believe in creating an automation for active users and non active users on your email list. And then I devise a plan where I create an activation sequence that attempts to reactivate those people and then move them into my active box, my active tag. And so I try and do that with a continual thing.
I do have a 3 month non-active, and a 6 month non-active, and non-active on my side means didn't open, didn't click. Right? So did open, no click, technically active, reading, aware. Right? After 3 months, not active, meaning not, you know, no open, no click, they go to the not, you know, they go to that 3 month list, and there's a different automation for those people. The 6th month is like, you know, am I giving you what you need? I wanna make sure I'm giving you what you need. And if I'm not, and this isn't the thing for you, no worries. If it is, and you just wanna sit quiet, you just sit quiet, like, don't worry about it. But they're not opening those emails. Right? But I am trying to reactivate them. And then people who are just sitting there, like, not opening the emails, I mean, yeah, if it's more than a, like, I mean, let's be honest. If it's more than like, 5 or 6 years, yeah. I might be saying, or even less. I might go, Hey. You know what? It doesn't look like we're really providing you the value. We're gonna send you a couple more emails, and then we're gonna, you know, we're gonna we're say goodbye unless it's something that's a good fit, but I don't do it like everybody else. We're like, hey, unless you like, you know those Facebook posts, like, I'm trying to trim my Facebook friends list, and unless you comment on this post, we're gonna move you. I don't, I just don't like that. I don't prescribe to that. So I try and do it from a loving side.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. And I like that. Right? Because there is, like, the push and pull between deliverability and, like, providing value in the slow play.
Jennie Wright: Mhmm.
Joe Casabona: And so I like the reactivation. Right? And, like, yeah, people switch were with me in Mailchimp, and then I moved to ConvertKit and also an entire niche change. I had a whole sequence. It was like, 5 emails. It was like, Hey. In 5 days, I'm gonna stop writing about WordPress completely. Like, you've probably noticed I've done that already. But just to make it clear, like, if you were here for WordPress, like, you're not gonna get that from me anymore. Click here to unsubscribe, like, no hard feelings. Right? And, I got a bunch. Right?
Jennie Wright: Mhmm.
Joe Casabona: But a lot of people stayed on. And every, for the attrition, every email I send, I see at least one person on subscribe who is with me for the, it's a new day for this email list, which is the first email I sent from ConvertKit. And I'm like, wow. They have stuck with me for 7 years or something like that. Yep. Right? So, you know, it's peep. I feel like people don't just stay on lists if they don't care. Right? I don't know. Whenever I get an email, I'm like, alright. I'm like over this. I'll unsubscribe. And so, like, the more loving, nurturing thing that you're doing, I think makes a lot of sense. And then it also kinda continues to build the relationship and be like, oh, hey. They're not, like, being super cutthroat about it.
Jennie Wright: It's just not who I am.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I think be who like, do what you're comfortable with feels like the the subtitle of this episode. Yeah. Awesome.
Now, all of that said, this does feel like a lot could take a long time. Right? I mean, we'll talk in a little bit about maybe how to find the right lead magnets. But is there a way that we can streamline this a little bit?
Jennie Wright: By streamline, do you mean…
Joe Casabona: glasses on.
Jennie Wright: Yeah. Exactly. By streamline, do you mean make it happen faster, get more leads more quickly?
Joe Casabona: Maybe it's like put a good process in place so I'm not spinning my wheels all the time.
Jennie Wright: Okay. Yeah. I can give you the, I can give you the generate process that I put in for pretty much, I look at for everybody. It's like my base method.
Joe Casabona: Mhmm.
Jennie Wright: So base method is this. I'll go through it pretty quickly. If you wanna get into anything more deeply, we can.
So base method is always a newsletter box on the website, minimum, minimum. If you don't have a lead magnet, then it's a quick build to your 1st lead magnet that is usually a PDF download, and leads to either a call or a secondary action. Within the 1st 6 months, I will get 2 more lead magnets built, but different. Right? So they won't be PDF downloads. They'll either be a video plus PDF aside, or they'll be a different kind of training, or they'll be an ebook, or something different. Not always the same thing because people learn differently, and I'll be on a slightly different topic.
So now we have 3 lead magnets. Okay? So that's the goal. 3 lead magnets in 6 months. We will look at the low hanging fruit for lead gen, which is appearing on other people's audiences. So that's, you know, getting on other people's summits, getting on other people's podcasts, and I can tell you where to find those. Right? So just getting on other people's things. That's the easiest way to create lead gen. Okay?
And then one of the things that I create is I always create a media folder on people's Google Drive. If you make it stupid simple, and I say this a lot, if you make it stupid simple for people to find you, book you, hire you, meet you, then you're eliminating all the barriers to entry to make them do it. So media folder, first person bio, 3rd person bio, approved images, talking like, talking points, like the talks that you would talk about, 3 different talks, Right? And links to your lead magnet. That's an easy peasy media folder, and you don't even have to have it built on your website by a WordPress person. You just put it on Google Drive. Right? And then I create a pretty link on my website. That's [jenniewright.com/media]. And then I can send everybody that. Make it simple. So that's another thing.
So now we've got 3 lead magnets. We've got a media folder. We're pushing out to try and find guest podcasting, guest speaking, and so on and so forth, and now we're gonna take it to the next level.
The next level is a list injection. Okay? This is where you're gonna host your own list build because everything I've told you is going to get you list growth, but it's gonna be, you know, onesies and twosies on your lead magnet. And then if you appear on a summit like you did, you can get 15 a day. Or if you appear on a bundle and so on, you might get more. Okay? Those are things.
Now, we're gonna create a list injection. This is your 1,000. This is like, at the end of this exercise, I'm gonna have a 1,000 new subscribers. That's where I want you to look at hosting an online summit. And they are not as they are work. They're a lot of work, but they're not scary, and it's not hard work. It's easy work. None of it's hard. It is all simple. It just takes time and proper planning. And properly planned out, over 5 months, a summit feels comfortable. Right? It doesn't have to feel like pain. It doesn't have to pull from your life. You're not gonna miss Friday career day with your kids. It fits into your life. Right?
So now we've got 3 lead magnets. We're building up our list. We're peering under those people's things. We're growing our credibility, and now we're gonna host our own thing, which sets us up as an expert in our field. And we're gonna create a list injection. We're gonna get those first 1,000 people. We're gonna make some money off of it. Right? And there's different ways to do that. Now we're set up to really sell the bigger thing. Right? So if we were doing 1 on 1 coaching, everything I told you before the summit can fill your 1 on 1 coaching. Now, the summit is gonna get you to scale. Okay? You do 1 summit a year, and do all the other things I told you. That's a continual build that that supersedes or exceeds any attrition that you'll have on your email list. So you'll be in growth mode constantly, but it feels comfortable. None of it is hustle culture. None of it's going to overtake your life, and you're not gonna freak out and go, Jennie, what the crap did you just ask me to do? It's gonna feel comfy and happy.
Joe Casabona: That's amazing. And I'll say, like, I've been behind this. My friend Brian Richards does virtual summits, and I've seen about, like, he does like a global audience, multi day thing which feels bananas, and he. and I both get in the weeds on tools and processes there.
Jennie Wright: You know, I build those too, Joe. I build the big, big, big ones, but the the smaller ones aren't just as effective.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. So let's talk about a smaller one real quick. Are we talking like, 4 hours, 8 hours, 5 talks, prerecorded, live, special platform, just Zoom. Like…
Jennie Wright: So, we can, I mean, there's always adding like, okay? You're a process person. You're an automation person. We can add in all the layers you want. We can get in the weeds. If you wanna keep it simple, then you create what I say is a 2-day event.
Joe Casabona: Okay.
Jennie Wright: Okay? 10 to 14 speakers, prerecorded, 20 minute to 25 minute sessions. Okay? That's not a lot. 1st day is speaker, speaker, speaker, speaker. Right? All released and everything. Day 2 is a half day speaker, half day sales. So in the morning, you're, you know, you're releasing your speakers, and then at like, 2 o'clock in the afternoon or 11 o'clock in the morning, whatever you want, you host your 2 hour workshop for whatever it is. So if you were trying to get people for your course as a like, as an example because I know we have a course, then your first day is speaker speaker speaker and stuff like that. And then your 2nd day is a workshop to show people how automation can transform their podcast, save them 12 hours a week, etcetera, etcetera, and help them, you know, grow their podcast and all those kinds of things. And you're just gonna give them the pain points, you're gonna give them a simple solution, and show them what it is, and then you can make the sale.
But you're providing really good content. You know what I mean? And you're offering a little bit of like, hey, if you join from this workshop, you're gonna get a special bonus, either early bird pricing or you're gonna get an extra coaching session with me or however it goes. 2 days. Easy. Okay? You can have a VIP package for $47.67, make a bit of money.
That's the easy version. If you wanna do what your friend does, and I do those too, those are for multi 6 and 7 figure entrepreneurs and people who have a team. You cannot do the big ones without a team. Right? So the simple one, you can just use Zoom. You can create a landing page in ConvertKit if you want, or wherever, you know, WordPress or whatnot. I like to build on things like ClickFunnels and Go High Level, which at the time we're recording this, I've just entered into litigation with each other. Super fun. ClickFunnels is actually suing GoHighLevel. Awesome. But those are the tools. Yeah. I know. It's crazy. I think GoHighLevel is gonna be okay, but we'll see.
So, those two tools are the ones I normally use, Kajabi, so stuff like that. But you can keep it really, really simple. And then the bigger summits have all a lot more bells and whistles, but, you know, you can have a different result. And all of this is organic. There's no paid anything in here. It's all organic because you get a better result with organic than you do with paid.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. Man, I have, like, a lot. There's a lot to think about here, but this is amazing. Also, I wanna point out to those listening who may be aspiring to be really good podcast guests. Jennie basically said my tagline. It like, she did her research. Like, she knows what I'm about, which is really nice, because I've also had people on the show or I've been guilty of this too where I get on the show and I'm like, I don't know what this person does, and I wish I had looked it up. So, kudos to Jennie for being a really good guest as well.
Jennie Wright: I did do my research.
Joe Casabona: Yes. Love it. This is also why your pitch was so good. Like, this is, I mean, we're gonna talk about this in the pro show, in Accelerated. I need to get used to saying that. It's been a rebrand. But we're gonna talk about, you know, how to kinda mix it up when you're doing a lot of podcasts. Right? Maybe we'll talk a little bit about pitching, but it's mostly gonna be about, like, how do you not just sound like you're on a press junket asking the same 5 questions over and over again. So, if you're interested in that, you can become a member over at [streamlined.fm/423]. You'll also find all of the show notes over there. You'll find my lead magnet, which is my automations template. But everything you can find over at [streamlined.fm/423].
Okay. We've gotten a lot of information. There is, there are several questions I wanna get to that I don't think we're going to be able to, but this is a really important one, so I definitely wanna cover it. How can we, we being solopreneurs nurture leads in a way that feels authentic and not too sales y? Because it feels like, hey, welcome to my list. Buy something from me that feels like it doesn't work.
Jennie Wright: For the most part, it won't. It does for some people. You know? It does for some. But for most people, it's not going to. So how I look at it is, again, it's that $5 in the nurture piggy bank before you try and take a dollar out, and that applies to your emails. Like, I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for joining my list. Here's the thing that you asked for. And so I always start with, here's what to expect. You know, I'm a solopreneur just like you. I'm trying to grow my business, support my family. I like to spend my weekends baking, you know, making pies, whatever.
So here's how I'm gonna roll. Every week, I'm gonna send you an email, and let you know what's going on, and share valuable insights and information that I think are gonna help. If that's great for you, awesome. Occasionally, I'm also gonna share opportunities that I think are gonna fit for where you are right now and how I think I can support you. You want those? Great. You don't? No problem. Right? I'm here to help and support. And occasionally, I'll also do ABCxyz, and that's about it. And I'm really glad you're here, and just to show my appreciation, here's something you didn't know you were gonna get. A little extra.
Joe Casabona: Yeah.
Jennie Wright: Because I, you know, I wanna show my value, like, that I value your, that you're here. And so stay tuned because in 2 days, I'm gonna send you an email. It's titled xyz, and here's what I'm gonna have in it, and I think it might be helpful, so stay tuned for that. And then I close the email. Right? So I've set expectations. I told them what I'm about. I've given them a little thing about, you know, how I value them. I've given them something extra that they never thought they were gonna get that I think is valuable. And I told them in 2 days, this is what's coming, so you have full clarity of what's coming your way. No surprises in Jennie Land. So they know what to expect. And that ends up taking a lot of the sting out of the, you know, I'm putting into the piggy bank right away with an extra freebie with who I am, what to expect, clarity, calm. Right? Always be the, you know, the calm thing. And and so they know exactly what's coming, and it kinda takes the, it makes people more relaxed and go, okay. Alright. Let's see what this is. And the guard's down.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. It's like you're making the investment, and then you're collecting the dividend. You're not even, like, connect, collecting the Initial investment. Right? You're, you've generated a goodwill interest here.
Jennie Wright: That's a hope. Yeah.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. I like that. It reminds me of I used to be, I won't say anti. That's not the right word, but, let's say suspicious of Justin Welsh.
Jennie Wright: Mhmm. Mhmm.
Joe Casabona: The Saturday solopreneur is his newsletter. He spoke at, CEX. My friend Chanel will tell you that I always approach from a position of suspicion, and I need to be won over, but that I do have an open mind and can be won over.
Jennie Wright: Mhmm.
Joe Casabona: And Justin, during his talk, his interview at CEX did win me over. He provided some really good interesting value. He talked about how he's not all about the sales. He's genuinely built a list by he said, I like to give everything away. I say give everything away for free, and then people can pay me for the organization. So, like, they can sift through all of my newsletters and every video I've ever done and put it in an order that works for them, or they can pay me $97 to do that for them. And I really like that because it really resonates with the way I think. And I think the way that we can make that investment into the piggy bank of goodwill.
Jennie Wright: We need to be good humans.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. And that's I think just approaching it that way. Is it a little bit slower sometimes? Sure. Is it less bro market y? Absolutely.
Jennie Wright: Yeah. Yeah. It's there's, my dad and brothers, so when my grandfather passed away, he had a long term investment account, and he just, like, saved all of his money and left it to us. And this was around the same time my dad retired, and so we were gonna pool our money and put it into a REIT, which is a Real Estate Investment something something. I forgot what the T stands for. And the guy who did the pitch is like, you can make 22% year over year. And a couple of my brothers were like, that's great. And I'm like, what is the catch? Because no one makes 22%. That we would all be rich if we made 22%.
Jennie Wright: Mhmm.
Joe Casabona: And it turns out, like, that was a very inflated number based on performance from one thing a long time ago, and they made their money per transaction. So they made a bunch of transactions every day and charged us for them all. And that's like you're trying to sell get rich quick. Life, there is no get rich quick in life.
Jennie Wright: Not legally as far as I've been able to find.
Joe Casabona: Not legally. Right. Yeah.
Jennie Wright: And I'm worried about that life.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. Or not long term. Right?
Jennie Wright: No.
Joe Casabona: You can make a ton of money really fast, but if you're a charlatan, people will know that you're a charlatan.
Jennie Wright: Mhmm.
Joe Casabona: And so I'd rather slow and and trustworthy.
Jennie Wright: Slow and steady.
Joe Casabona: Slow and steady. Absolutely.
Jennie, this has been great. As we close out here, I do wanna ask, like okay. So what are 2 you know, I always ask for, like, the actionable advice at the end here. We've gotten a lot. So maybe we can, just maybe do, you provided your base framework. But if someone wants to get started, like, today, what should they do? Like, how do they figure out what their first lead magnet should be?
Jennie Wright: Do some research. Spend an hour to 2 hours. Get on social media. Find your people, wherever your people are, and see what they're talking about. Right? So what are the pain points that they're talking about? Don't look at the people in your space who are also solving the same issue. Okay? Don't.
Joe Casabona: I'm sorry. Was that directed at me?
Jennie Wright: Maybe, maybe not. But don't look at those people. Look specifically at your audience and nobody else. Not the providers, but the people. See what they're talking about, the issues that they're talking about, and then you can see who they're following, and you can go that way, but always start with the people first. And, like, as an example, like Amy Porterfield would be somebody I would look at if I was looking at the provider. But I need to look at what our people are actually talking about, and then, you know, and then I can go that way. So that's how I would do that before creating my first lead magnet. Then I'd get out ChatGPT, and I would feed ChatGPT, copy and pasted what people have been saying are their biggest issues, and then ask for a list of, like, 10 high you know, highly engaging, thought provoking, blah blah blah blah blah, lead magnet ideas, and then I would start to whittle from there, whittle down.
Joe Casabona: I like that. And now people on this show know that I am AI hesitant. Right?
Jennie Wright: As a person who writes as well, me too. It's not gospel. It's not. Don't take it for word for word. And, yes, you can train a ChatGPT, but I always end up making my own edits. For me, it's idea generation.
Joe Casabona: That's, yeah. Exactly. And so talk to your, talk to the people that you're trying to serve. I did an email survey, which got pretty good results. I was pretty shocked. And then I also ran a similar poll across social media for people who are following me. And I found that, where people are spending, where they feel they spend too much time is not necessarily in editing, which is what I thought, or promoting, which is also what I thought. It's in content planning. And I'm like, well, hotdog. I have processes out the wazoo for that. So put all that information into I'm trying perplexity Pro, which is like a thing that also talks to ChatGPT and Claude, and I like Claude for writing.
Jennie Wright: Yeah.
Joe Casabona: And I said, here's all my survey data, all my poll data. What like, help me coalesce. Like, help me, massage this data and come up with something good. And now I'm working on not just a lead magnet, but, like, a product to help people.
So, love AI generative AI, LOLMs, for that sort of thing. But, also, like, talk to your audience. I have been doing this for a while. I have assumptions. My assumptions were wrong. And so it it could be as easy as emailing your current list and just be like, hey. What are you struggling with? And then they respond. Or, like Jennie said, go out into Facebook groups or Twitter's, whatever they have now, and actually talking to the people that you're trying to serve.
Jennie Wright: Do you know I do a survey every week?
Joe Casabona: On your email list?
Jennie Wright: LinkedIn.
Joe Casabona: Oh, on LinkedIn. Oh, not Katie Brinkley. I don't know if you know her.
Jennie Wright: Oh, yes. She's the person who does my social media.
Joe Casabona: That's so, she just oh, this is so fun. She spoke at, I went to her talk at CEX.
Jennie Wright: She's amazing.
Joe Casabona: So good. And, yeah. She gave, like, her 4
Jennie Wright: 4 postgraduates. Mhmm.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. And, yeah, the first one, that's why I just ran that poll recently because I'm like, oh, this feels good. I need to get her book. I need to get her on the show, to be honest.
Jennie Wright: A 100% need to get her on the show, and her book is amazing. She's been doing my social media for over a year.
Joe Casabona: Mhmm.
Jennie Wright: I think for about 2 years, and I run her online events, like her summits and so on and so forth.
Joe Casabona: So good.
Jennie Wright: Yeah. Amazing. Actually, I'm so thankful to have a friend like her. And the surveys that she does are, I just, my eyes pop because I'm like, I never thought that was gonna be the answer, and now I have to rethink. And it's great. It's like but I write content from like, oh, this is the results of the poll. Awesome. This made me think. And I actually do some podcast episodes from it. Like, hey, I did a poll, I did an episode, you know, I did a poll on LinkedIn. These were the 3 questions. The answers that I got were pretty insane. This episode is gonna be all about that.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. And then if you get feedback, you have a little content flywheel going on there. Like, it's so good. Yeah. I definitely gonna have Katie on. In case Katie uses like, PodScan. Right? The Arvid Arvid? His product. Hi, Katie.Your name just popped up a million times.
Jennie Wright: Katie. Katie. Katie.
Joe Casabona: Jennie, this has been mind blowing. I like, I don't say that word a lot, but I have a lot to think about as someone who struggles to grow his list sometimes. I know my listeners have a lot to think about. If people wanna learn more about you and what you do, where can they find you?
Jennie Wright: I'm incredibly approachable. You know, follow me on Instagram or LinkedIn. Send me a DM. Tell me that you saw me on this podcast. You know, Joe sent me, whatever. And I'm happy to talk to you. I'm happy to, you know, kinda support you. My website, [jenniewright.com], all my services are there as well, and willing to you know, obviously, there's some free resources that you can grab there as well, and, willing to help out any way I can.
Joe Casabona: Awesome. I will have all of that in the show notes over at [streamlined.fm/423]. Again, if you wanna hear Jennie and I talk about how to mix it up when doing podcasts, I'm also gonna ask her about a few other podcast people because now we've crossed people we know multiple times. You can become a member over there as well. You'll get every episode ad free and extended. You'll get bonus episodes. And maybe starting soon, maybe this already started based on when this episode comes out, I'll be doing an automation of the month, which feels like a pretty, high value thing based on a lot of stuff that I already have that I can deliver for you. So head on over to [streamlined.fm/423].
Joe Casabona: And, yeah, Jennie, thanks so much for joining us. I really appreciate it.
Jennie Wright: It's been fantastic, and I've loved the conversation. You're amazing. Thank you.
Joe Casabona: Thank you so much. Feelings are mutual. Thank you to our sponsors. Thank you for listening, and until next time. I'll see you out there.