Would say the first step and probably the most important step is something that we we we talked about earlier today is really knowing your priority, knowing what your non negotiables are. And if it's not already obvious to some people, like, the word priority, like, there's no plural to it. Right? It's just one. - Terry Toh
Joe Casabona: Recently, my friend Justin asked on X, How do you define success? I said, if I can answer the question, can I knock off for the day at will to spend time with my family with, Yes, I am successful.
The world constantly tells us we need to hustle to be successful, but that can't be true. If you're a parent, for example, hustle is not an option. That's why I've brought on Terry Toh. Terry helps business owners successfully run their side business while maintaining a full time job. But as you can see, much of what he has to say can apply to busy solopreneurs who may have other obligations, like family, volunteering, or other interests outside of work. It's all about finding your nonnegotiable.
Welcome to the Streamlined Solopreneur, a show for busy solopreneurs to help you improve your systems and processes, so you can build a business while spending your time the way you want. I know you're busy, so let's get started.
All right. I'm here with Terry Toh. Terry, thanks for being on the show.
Terry Toh: Thank you for having me, Joe.
Joe Casabona: So, you talk a lot about side hustles and full time jobs. This is a show for busy solopreneurs, many of whom are parents, which can feel like a full time job running your business and being a parent. Do you see a lot of overlap in who you help and the people listening here? And if so, what challenges do they face?
Terry Toh: For sure. Well, first of all, I just wanna put it out there that really, like my, I feel that parenting is is sometimes or most of the time more than a full time job. It's tough. It's tough. Right? Like, you shared with me earlier, you've got like, 3 kids at home, you know, and then you're also doing your own thing here, and your wife's like working. It's hard. Right? So they need a lot of care and attention. So really, like, shout out to all the parents out there. You guys have it tough. Respect for keeping it all together, man. Yeah. Just wanna put it out there. Yeah. But really, like, the definitely there's a big overlap, right, between, you know, the listeners who are solopreneur parents and the people I work with who are, you know, they have a day job, and they run, they're building as a hustle or they are running one already.
And the third thing they have is really, a nonnegotiable. Right? So this is, these three things are what I see the similar across the people I work with and the folks who are listening to this podcast. The only difference is really, like, what is that nonnegotiable?
For the parents, obviously, it's the kids, the family. You know? It's that's how usually they prioritize things in their life. That's number 1. Right? And they just work around it.
For those who the people that I've worked with who are not parents, there's usually other things, right? They would, you know, they would, their nonnegotiable could be, you know, working out, exercise, taking care of their health, or even mental health as well. Some folks make it a point to, like, stay in touch intentionally with close group of friends to just maintain those relationships. Others maybe prioritize personal growth, so they spend a lot of time reading, you know, watching things on YouTube or listening to podcasts like this to learn something and, you know, build, make themselves into a better person. Right? So it's really what is that nonnegotiable.
And at the end of the day, we all have only 24 hours a day. Whether we like it or not, we can't change that. Right? And it's just how we prioritize things. It's how we use the time and spend it on only, like, really the most important things that matter every day.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. I love that. And I'll share just a couple of, like, you know, nonnegotiable does change, right? before and after kids. Before kids, I had a full-time job in my side hustle. I was able to do both because I had no kids. But, like, I remember I went on a vacation, and my boss at a former job, like, emailed me, like, the day my first day of vacation and was like, hey, Joe. If you have any downtime, can you and I, honestly don't know what the rest of that email said. Like, I just deleted it. Like I, that's obnoxious to do that on my first day. And like, it was a weird power play. Right? And…
Terry Toh: Mhmm.
Joe Casabona: I like she never brought it up again. Right? And then, like, similarly, like, when my daughter was born, I was at a full-time job. I left three months after my daughter was born, and I got paid paternity leave. And the project, one of the project managers put a meeting on my calendar before my paternity leave left or ended, and I messaged her. I was like, hey. I don't exist until April 9th. Like, that was the day I Came back, and I was like, I don't and she's like, but we need and I'm like, I don't exist. Anything can wait. You, like, you know I'm out. I'm taking care of my kid.
And so, like the, you know, having those don't bem I didn't lose my job either one of those times. Right? Like, I had the nonnegotiables, and they were fine. Right? Like, I was clear about those things, and so I think that's really important. So, I really love what you say there about, like, having that nonnegotiable.
Terry Toh: I think that's the thing. Right? Like, a lot of people that I've worked with before spoke to, you know, the one of the big reasons why they struggle with time management is because they are not clear about what those nonnegotiables are. They don't, and because they're not clear, they're not aware of what those are, it makes it super difficult for them to draw boundaries. And even beyond that, you have to communicate those boundaries to those that needs to know about those boundaries. So I really like what you did, you know, that, you know, you pushed back in a way in a polite way, of course, to your coworkers, your boss who say I don't exist because I'm on my paternity leave. That's really like you, first of all, you know family is important at this point of time. Like, that's the whole reason you were on paternity leave in the first place. Right? And as a manager, like, they've got to respect that. Yeah. Right?
Joe Casabona: Yeah. Absolutely.
Terry Toh: I recall, there was, there's a former director that I knew back at work. She had this amazing line. Like, I remember, I still remember it was my 2nd month at, in my, in this job. And she said to me, you know, like, Terry, we are not saving babies over here. You know, this is just, this is essentially, like, heard that word, like, you're not saving babies. It's really like to me, just makes me feel that awesome. This is a great place to work at because they respect boundaries. They appreciate and they know that we're all just here. We're here. We do our job. We knock off, and then we have a life outside of the office. That is just something that I'm so grateful to have in my day job. And that's also what really gave me a lot more confidence and space to really pursue and work on side hustles outside of my day job.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. I love that. That's so healthy. Right? I think, like, conversely, when I moved to my last job before I went self employed full-time, I went from higher ed, which was like you know, it's like, pretty slow over there. Right? It's like they move slowly. It's not high stakes.
And then I moved to an agency that did work for mostly Fortune 100 companies. And then my boss who hired me to his credit, he was like, hey. This isn't higher ed. Right? Like, this is, there are gonna be times where you have to work late and work weekends. And like, he laid that out on the table and said, yeah. I know I'm ready for that. Like, I'm gonna level up. But then, you know, when my daughter was born, again, like, I realized, like, hey. I need to figure out what's most important to me. Do I need to give up the full-time job, or do I need to give up my side hustle? Because I will not be able to do all three as well as I want to do them, full-time job, parenting and side hustle.
So, ultimately, I talked to my wife, and I had her support, and I left my full-time job. It was, it's like looking back, it's a little crazy. Like, we had a 3 month old, and my wife was about to go on unpaid maternity leave because, like, she just took the full 6 months that you're allowed to take here in the United States. And I was like, dang. I'm leaving, like, the only job security like, the only, like, income security we have. But I had her full support, and it was great. So, I think this is really, really good.
Terry Toh: Just in case, you know, folks who are listening, you know, they might think that, like, the only other reason is, like, if they really cannot handle, they have to quit or something or to give up something. I would say, oh, that's not a bad way to think about it, but I would just say, like, don't jump into that extreme. Because, like, oftentimes, some things could be managed in a lighter way if you just, like, ask and share and set expectations. Right? So, and only if, and only if that, if like things don't work out. Like, they don't allow your circumstances, don't allow you to sort of, like, maybe reduce intensity in one area or manage expectations accordingly. If really all else fails, then okay, let's really consider dropping one of them. Obviously, you can drop family. That's like, yeah. You're stuck, you're stuck with them. Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Terry Toh: So you're there. So everything else then maybe, like, you know, let's find a way to work around it. And the thing about, you know, jumping straight into like, you know, the thing I hear a lot with working on a day job and building a side hustle is that many folks feel this urge to, like, want to go into their side hustle full-time, making it a main hustle and then giving up on a day job. Okay. That's one way to one direction to go, but, like, have you considered everything else? You know, are you financially okay? You need not be fully independent or free, but, like, let's be realistic. If you can't take care of yourself, if you don't have enough, you don't have, like, you know, safety nets, reasonable amount of, like money, support around. If you're just gonna leave that security, on a whim, I would say that just puts you in a lot, in a worse state because then you are under a lot of pressure to make your side hustle work. And that's just not a good place for your mental state really.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. I think this is so crucial. Right? And to add some context, so to kind of my decision. Right? Mhmm. First of all, I had been self employed on and off since I was 14. And so, like, I had a pretty decently established business. I will say I learned the hard way that, like, side hustle money is not full-time job money.
Terry Toh: Mhmm.
Joe Casabona: And so, like, you do need to make sure. Like, we had some runway in savings, but, like, we dipped into it a little bit more than I wanted to. And then, like you said, right, talk to your manager, see if you can make these things work. I knew it wouldn't be able to work for me because at one point, one of our other project managers said, like, hey. If you want to get paid, you need to work this weekend. And I said, you know, I got, I had tickets to Hamilton for my first wedding anniversary. I was like, I'm not working this weekend. Like, you know, how hard these tickets were to get? Like, it's like our first major outing since our daughter was born. Like, sorry. And like, at that moment, I knew, like, you know what? This is not gonna work. Like, what this job is demanding is incompatible with the life I wanna live now. So, I think…
But you raise a really good point. Right? You don't necessarily have to give up one or the other. And I think, you know, all of this I'm talking about was pre pandemic. I think there's been more understanding, I think, this is maybe a perception of work life balance post pandemic and like, businesses realizing, like, hey. Maybe you don't need to, like, be in the office under my watchful eye to be productive. Right? Like, maybe I don't need to track every single minute you have. Maybe, like, it's just like based on the things I tell you to do. If you get those done, then you're being productive. So, I think that's all really important context.
Okay. So I wanted to ask you about time management, but I think, first, you brought up something that I want to touch on or really have an extended discussion on. It's the main reason I brought you here. Right?
Terry Toh: Sure.
Joe Casabona: And that is hustle culture. So there's an entire culture of, like, you need to hustle to be successful. Alex Hormozi says things like you have 109 days in the year to work on your side hustle. It's called the weekends. Gary Vee wrote in one of his books like, hey. If you have a family, work your full-time job, and then after they go to bed, work for 3 to 4 hours every night. And I'm like, this is advice from people who, again, like, they don't have kids. Right? So, I like, the like, it's like, I'm just gonna like, the thing Gary Vee said, I don't know if he feels that way anymore because I think he wrote that in a book, like, 10 years ago.
But, like, do you like, I am so tired after working all day and then spending time with my kids and then putting them to bed. If I worked after that, like, my brain would just be mush. Like, I wouldn't, it wouldn't be good work, and then I wouldn't get enough sleep because you have a, you know, a wake up call at 5:30 or 6 every morning, right, with your kids. So, like, I guess long preamble aside, do you need to hustle to be successful?
Terry Toh: For me, really, it really it's, I wouldn't say it's a, you need to be hustle to be successful. Right? And, you know, I don't wanna sound cliche, but really, it's what does successful really mean to you. Right? If success, being successful (oh gosh!) means like having a certain number in your bank account. Okay. If it means having some kind of like being able to do whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want, that's one way as well, right? Or you know, just having the time to be like being able to spend time with your loved ones, your family, or whoever. You know, there are many different definitions of successful. And along with that, there are many ways to achieve that success. But being like doing a side hustle isn't the only way, right?
To your point around like what Gary Vee or Alex Hormozi say, you know, you work over the weekends? Sure. That can work, but I feel that there is, it's not that they're wrong, but maybe there's, you need to put that into context, right? If to your point, like, say you do a 9 to 5, and then in between on your commute back, you grab a quick dinner, you know, your brain is like, I'm done for the day. Especially if, like, you have a day that, like, it's just back to back meetings all day. By the time you're home, you're done. Like even if you're a super extroverted person who gets energy from interacting with people, yeah. Like, you know, even extroverts need a break sometimes.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. And I’m one of them.
Terry Toh: And personally, I don't have kids. So, really, like, the whole thing there is when you’re just not optimizing for energy and then like, you wanna make sure that beyond protecting time, you wanna protect some energy as well and, make sure that you kinda know that ahead of time.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. That's really smart advice. And what you said, right, what does successful mean to you? You need to answer this question. Right? Because, again, in my twenties, like, before I was dating my wife, I was like, yeah. I wanna be a millionaire by 30. And then, like, I started dating my wife, and I was like, that's like a lot of work to be a millionaire. Like, that's so much work. And once I started dating the woman I would end up marrying, I was like, there are more important things in life.
And, like, I still have hobbies. Right? Like, I watch baseball. Like, that's a lot of time in the evening. I like to build Lego and smoke cigars. Right? Like, I play the drums. Like, when I talk to people and they say, oh, my job is my hobby. Like, that makes me (this is a little bit judgy on my part, I guess) but, like, that makes me a little sad. Right? Like, the only interest you have is your job. Like, I don't think I've ever felt that way.
But I guess this leads to a really important question that we need to answer. Like, how can we define success for ourself? I know that this is very subjective, but do you you know, with your, you know, you coach people on this thing. Right? I think something we haven't said yet is, like, you work full-time at Google, and then you have your coaching business on the side, right, which we're gonna talk about in, Streamlined Solopreneur Accelerated. You can sign up and get that ad free, over at [streamlined.fm/join]. But, you know, you help people work through this stuff. So, do you have, like, a framework or a set of questions to answer, like, how can we define success for ourselves?
Terry Toh: For sure. Right? I think for me, I would say the first step and probably the most important step is something that we talked about earlier today is really knowing your priority, knowing what your nonnegotiables are. And if it's not already obvious to some people, like, the word priority, like, there's no plural to it. Right? It's just one. Right? I always hear, you know, especially there's a lot of this in corporate speak, right, like you gotta know a pri… you gotta set up priorities. It's plural. But like, if you really think about it, like, priorities, plural, is it kinda, doesn't make sense.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. I used to say if everything's a priority, nothing. Like, I would say this to my boss.
Terry Toh: Nothing is a priority.
Joe Casabona: If everything's a priority, nothing's a priority.
Terry Toh: Yep. Exactly. So we've gotta know that what's that one thing, you know, that we it's a nonnegotiable. Right? Sure. And you can sort of just rank things but at any point in time you need to know what is the most important thing that matters to you and/or the people around you right now. Right here, right now. So they really need to dig deep, ask themselves what do they care about the most? You know what's gonna happen? Or rather like what do they care about the most? That's number one. Why is it important to them at this point in time? Right?
And you know, they could even go think a bit deeper and say like and think like how how long is this phase gonna last, right? And I really wanna emphasize this thing around phase because, you know, life changes, right? What was important to me 5 years ago, heck, what was important to me 6 months ago or even last week It might be completely different from what is important to me right now.
So, we always gotta, like, check-in with ourselves and really, you know, ask ourselves what's that most important thing. And I would say just come up with, like, put together, like a list of not too many things, just 3 or 5. I personally don't like to go beyond 3 things, right, because anything more than 3, really, if you ask yourself, it's just not that important.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. It's not a wish list. Right? It's because, like, I could tell you, like, all right. Well, I wanna have a successful business and spend time with my family and go to the gym and eat healthy and go to the Yankee game. And I live in Philly, so it's like a two hour train ride. But, like, those aren't, those are just things I want. Right?
My, you know, if I'm making my nonnegotiables or my priority list, it's like, have enough time to work on my business that I can support my family, knock off at basically at will, right, to spend time with my family and be involved in my community. Right? And I'm, like, the president of the Home and School Association for my kids' school, this year, and I know that's a time commitment. And because that's something that I want to do and feel I should do, I've made that a priority. And I think, like, everything else, like, I'll go for walks when I can. Right? I'll eat healthy because that's easier than making time to exercise. And so, like, those are some of the things that I put on my nonnegotiable list. Right? Like, with my family being my number one priority.
Terry Toh: You know, I would reframe wish list, into like, to call it a pipeline instead.
Joe Casabona: Nice.
Terry Toh: Right? It's like, you know, the, of course, I mean, if we really, like, reflect that there are always a lot of things that we wanna do in life, you know, I'm sure you have those friends that, you know, like, I wanna do this, I wanna do that, and then every time you meet them, they have like, 10,000 things out of 10,000 new things that they wanna do, but they haven't just haven't done it yet. All right? Yeah. Like, why they haven't done it as a separate conversation altogether, but you can, yeah. That's we have that kind of friend. Yeah.
But really again going back to the fundamental fact here, right, we only have 24 hours a day. Right? We only have a set amount of like energy and attention that we can spend every day. We just can't get to everything everywhere all at once. Right? That's why we gotta have that. We gotta know what is that nonnegotiable. What is the most important thing, right, that we should actively, intentionally, like, make some progress with every day. And as soon as that, you know, that need gets fulfilled, gets done, it just, you know, moves to the back of the pipeline, and everything just moves up.
Sure. From time to time, and personally, I like to do this, like, on a monthly or quarterly basis. Just look at the list. Just spend, like, 5 minutes just like, see. Do you need to, like, move things around based on, like, new needs or new applications? Sure. You just do that quick. Sanity check yourself, but then just go with that.
Joe Casabona: That's great advice. And I think it kinda leads into the next thing that I was gonna ask you about. Right? And this is a weird question. Right? Because, like, how do we know when we're doing too much? I think, like, on face value, you could be like, of course, you'll know, but like, you don't know until you burn out sometimes. Right? Like, you just don't realize. You say yes to a lot of things, and then you feel overwhelmed. And, you know, it's almost like a lagging indicator of agreeing to too much. Right? So how do we know, or how can we tell when we're doing too much, and and how can we scale back before we do burnout?
Terry Toh: This is a tough question because, really, like, I'm no expert on burnout. Right?
Joe Casabona: Yes. I should say that neither of us are mental health experts, so, like, you shouldn't be like, you don't take this as medical or mental health advice. This is just like we're just kinda chatting about our own observations based on our experiences.
Terry Toh: For sure. For sure. So, I mean, if anyone's listening to this, like, if you feel like you're burning up, please talk to a doctor or qualified professional.
Joe Casabona: Yes. I have my therapy appointment shortly after this recording. So, therapy is super important. I fully endorse having therapy.
Terry Toh: That makes two of us. Yeah. Anyway, coming back. Right? It's, yeah. So I'm no expert on burnout, but I definitely have experienced burnout before. And to your point, I think you put it out very nicely. By the time you really feel that burnout, it's kinda too late. Frankly, I'm still, personally, I'm like, trying to recognize and learn from every episode like what could be a potential indicator, right? And I feel like this varies from people to people.
Joe Casabona: Mhmm.
Terry Toh: Right? For me, I would I've observed that, you know, there are certain routines in my life that would just break down when I, when there's an onset of like heavy stress or you know, burnout is potentially coming. For example, the same thing called revenge bedtime procrastination. Right? Where you were just like, you just go to bed very late, even though like in that, in those few hours like at midnight, you're not really doing anything particularly productive, but you just refuse to go to bed when every cell in your body is telling you, yeah, you gotta hit the hay.
Joe Casabona: I'm gonna, I'm just gonna say, like, this is so real. Like, as a parent, like, those hours before bed are like, after our kids go to bed and before we go to bed is like, quiet time. And like, my wife and I definitely stayed up too late for that, for those moments.
Terry Toh: Mhmm. It's kinda like you just need that time for yourself. Totally get it. Right? But then maybe, okay. It might be a bit difficult in the context of, like, kids because you can do all you, I mean, you can definitely try to, like, put them to bed earlier, but, you know, they don't always go to bed on time. Right? So that's one. But for those, you know, if they don't have kids, but their days are just busy busy busy busy busy all the way, they really just gotta like it's almost like, you have to really force yourself and recognize that. Okay. It's why are you so busy in the first place? Why can't you just get to things when deep, when you should and instead, like, leaving them or procrastinate and, you know, because you don't,you feel that you haven't really done what you promised, you would do, get to today, you feel like you are losing a sense of control. And that's why I believe, like, there's a bit of that. That's where, like, the revenge bedtime procrastination comes into play, especially for me, that's my observation. So every time I feel like I'm just staying up late for nothing, I'm just scrolling through YouTube or like browsing minus c on Kickstarter or whatever, I'm like, okay, this is a sign. I need to do a mental check for myself.
Joe Casabona: I love that. You know, you gotta understand your own signs and what are you doing. Right? For me, it's, if I am like, very impatient with my kids, I know that there's something like, if I snap at them for basically no reason, or because, like, they're being kids, right, that's when I know, like, something's bothering me. And like you said, like, you know, if you're doing something in the evening, and you're like, trying to reclaim your time, I think something parents can and should do is find a babysitter or, like, tap in a parent. Like, just like my wife and I try to do fortnightly date nights. Right? And it it doesn't work out all the time because, like, vacation and travel and summer is chaos. But, like, we try at least a couple of times a month to go out, just me and her, and like, the babysitter or my father-in-law will put them to bed, and we can just be out and enjoy ourselves. And like that, then we're not staying up too late because we got that time.
So, like, no matter, you know, you might live far away from parents, but, like, have a support system so that you can create that margin because then you'll be a better parent or and business owner, and you won't burn out, and it won't feel like chaos all the time.
Terry Toh: 100%. I agree with that. It's just, it's really knowing what are the tasks that you can, like, delegate or outsource. You know, I definitely see myself, me and my wife, like, when we do have a kid eventually, that is definitely on the table. I do have friends who right now maybe they are still like new parents and they'd be like, you know, I don't trust having someone like a stranger to look after my kid. But you gotta start somewhere, right? In my heart, you know, I'm just thinking you have to… sure. you can just, like, try it out. Maybe start with someone you trust like your parents or like a very good friend, You know? But you gotta start somewhere before, like, you gain that confidence, gain that familiarity.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. I think something that I learned well, so first of all, like, we had our first babysitter, like, shadow us one day. And then because I work from home, we were able to have her here while I was working. Right? So that if she had questions or, like, you know, if there was, I don't trust any. I'm from New York. I don't really trust anybody. But, I think that's really important.
And then something I learned later is, like, most babies are pretty predictably easy. It's like, hard to see that if you're a new parent. Like, this is not a knock on you, new parent. This is just, it feels really hard when you're in it and sleep deprived. But, like, looking on it, it's like, oh, our babysitter handled like, my 3 kids, including my 2 month old when she was first hired way easier than we did because she's like, younger and has like, fresh eyes and isn't sleep deprived, and she knows how babies work. Like so I think, like, being able to start somewhere is super important.
Now, we are coming up on time here, and so, I want to make sure that we get to the real, the practical advice. We've touched on this a little bit, so I wanna jump to the time and task management area because it's something you talk about a lot, and I think this is really important. What are some common mistakes that solopreneurs or full-time employees with side hustles make when it comes to time management, and really, how can they avoid or fix those mistakes?
Terry Toh: That's a, that's, I love this question. And when I first saw saw this question, I'm like, sheesh. Where do we start? Right? Yeah. But, I'm gonna try to make it a little bit more concise, and I'm summarizing, I'm gonna summarize in three big important areas.
The first one is, we touched upon this earlier is that recognize that priority is singular, it's not plural. Right? You gotta know what that nonnegotiable is, so that you can work and plan your time and energy around it, right? If you don't have a clear view of what that number one priority, and maybe like the following 2 or 3, at most 5, things that come after it, if you don't have a very clear view of that at any point in time, nothing's gonna work because you just have, you just don't know how to, there's no guide for you to allocate your time and energy into. So, you gotta know that first before anything else, right?
And one easy way to sort of get to that is really just talk to a friend, talk to a trusted friend. A therapist is also a very good person to turn to, right? I personally like to talk to my wife about it, right? Because I recognize and I feel I genuinely believe that she's someone who's like a very logical, very objective person. And she really helps me like you know when I talk to her she would give me that kind of like perspective. So, talking to somebody really helps but, it you know, that's one easy way to go about it.
Another way, I mean a supplementary to that is we're just putting things down. There is I think an episode on Friends where I can't remember which one was it, and they had to make a list, like the pros and cons.
Joe Casabona: Oh, yes. I'm a Friend's connoisseur, so I can tell you, like, this was when Ross was trying to figure out if he should date Rachel or Julie. Right? Is this the episode you're talking about?
Terry Toh: Yeah. Yes. Yes. You know, like, definitely not advocating for, like, you know, Right. Being wishy washy relationships, but the whole point of putting on this in…
Joe Casabona: tough spot. Right? He was like, he loved Rachel for years. Right?
Terry Toh: Mhmm. Exactly. Exactly. So, like, just when you just put it when you're just talking, and you're just or you're just thinking, it's just, there's just nothing there, right? But when you put things on paper, it sounds really cliche, it sounds really basic, but it works. And there's a reason why the pen and paper has persisted through history. Right?
Joe Casabona: Yeah. You know, I knock books for always referencing The Checklist Manifesto. Like, yeah, we get it. Like, if you've read, like, 3 business books, right, you've heard of The Checklist Manifesto. But if you haven't, like, that's a very helpful book. Right? Like, write down the things you need to do, then you see it, and it makes it concrete. It's not just like a theory or like something ephemeral in your head. You actually see it on paper.
Terry Toh: Yeah. That's like just seeing it just changes you. And that's also why I like to advocate for talking to people. Right? Because it's one thing to think about it in your head, but when you're actually verbalizing out, and then you're kinda like hearing yourself, it just gives you a different perspective. So, like, that's really the first thing, about how to, you know, come up with like, the list of priorities in your life. Priority in your life.
Joe Casabona: Yes. Yes. Yes. Again, another thing I love there. Right? When I was a programmer is sure enough, like, I would be running into a problem, and I would go talk to a coworker or a friend, like, asking them, like, what they think. Like, I need help on this. And then talking through the problem, I would solve the problem. Like…
Terry Toh: Mhmm.
Joe Casabona: Just like hearing like, hear again, hearing it out loud, like, makes it real and concrete.
Okay. So we are just about at time. Like I said, if you want more, if you're enjoying this conversation, Terry and I are gonna talk about, like, what it's like working at Google and running a side hustle in the pro show or the accelerated show, I guess it's called now. So you can sign up over at [streamlined.fm/join]. You'll get ad free extended versions of every episode.
But I wanna end here, because we haven't really, you touched on it a little bit, but, something I talked about with my podcast coaching clients is like, automation and delegation. How much can automation and delegation help in this? Is it the juice worth the squeeze?
Terry Toh: So much. So, so much, especially for a solopreneur, really because, like, as a solopreneur, you're already wearing multiple hats. You're doing everything on your own for your business, right, so it does help when you can, you know, just invest a bit of time to set up, you know, whatever automation that you can set up.
I really feel that, you know, tools like Zapier, Make, you know, these kind of tools that help you link across programs, does wonders for like, especially if you're running an online business. Even if it's like an offline, almost like service based business, there are still opportunities to automate, right? All the way from like like collecting leads, sign ups, you know, sending them, onboarding material, you know, giving them a calendar to book a time. Everything can be automated in just like a snap. That just saves so much time so that you can really spend the time freed up on really delivering what's really the most important for your clients.
Like, so in your case, it's like, you know, coaching, you know, people. That's what they pay you money for. All right? And that's what brings you joy when you can, you know, help other people set up really successful podcasts. That's the most you gotta focus your time on the things that really matter most to you and your business.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. That's great. That's a great place to end it. Terry, if people wanna learn more about you, where can they go?
Terry Toh: I am available on all social media platforms, mostly Twitter, and LinkedIn, @talktoterry.co. That's [talktoterry.co]. It's only c o because I couldn't get the dot com domain. So…
Joe Casabona: I know that pain. Awesome. I will link to all of that and everything we talked about over in the show notes, which you can find in wherever you're listening to, or you can go to [streamlined.fm/434]. You'll find all the links. You'll also find a way to join streamline solo, solopreneur accelerated.
Terry, thanks so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it.
Terry Toh: Thank you. Thank you. I had a really fun conversation.
Joe Casabona: Thank you for listening. Thanks to our sponsors. And until next time, I'll see you out there.