“Nothing has broken. I think what kind of broke was like my hypnosis with like just having that tab open on my computer all the time, honestly. And I'm not saying this just to be super, like unrealistically positive. Like, it's just been one of the best decisions I've made in business. We figured out a way from a delivery side of things, you know, that just means managing timelines better with clients, and it's just nothing but upside. It's probably putting a limit on our growth potential, you know, and how much scale there is and at what speed we can scale. But from a day-in, day-out point of view, nothing is broken. I just feel mentally a lot more. More clear, I guess.” - Joe Mckay
Joe Casabona: Joe Mckay is a LinkedIn ghostwriter and content strategist who left his government job in Australia to raise his family in rural France. It sounds idyllic. He's built a thriving content agency while living the ultimate solopreneur dream. But, get this. He doesn't use AI in his work. That's right. Joe is a self-proclaimed AI vegan. And just like with Whole 30 or keto, what started as a 30-day experiment has turned into a lifestyle. But as you heard in the cold open, nothing in his agency broke. He's feeling more mental clarity and dare I say, more human.
I've been down an AI rabbit hole for a few months now. So, this is a refreshing look at how we can build a successful, scalable business in 2025 without using AI at all. Despite what all the self proclaimed experts say.
If you're overwhelmed by a chaotic business that's stealing time from your family, Streamlined Solopreneur is for you. Hey, everybody. My name's Joe Casabona, and I've been there. And on this show, I will show you how to turn chaos into clarity. So, you can stop checking your email at the playground.
All right. I'm here with Joe McKay. Joe, how are you today?
Joe McKay: I’m well. Thank you, man. It is, yeah, mid-summer as we talk. The window's open, the breeze is flowing. I can hear kids splashing in the pool. A good time to be alive.
Joe Casabona: That is fantastic. Great name by the way. You are in a place where the climate is kind to you in the summer. I assume it is oppressively hot right now here in the northeast of the United States. So, no windows are open, and my AC is so high that my electric company is very upset with me.
Joe McKay: We did just survive a heat wave. It's calmed down a little bit now. And so the pool comes in very, very handy. But feeling for you, man, in the heat, there's nothing, nothing worse.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. absolutely. You know, I tell myself I'm not allowed to complain about the heat because I complain about the winter. And I'm like, you can't really, you can't complain about both. Since I choose to live in the Northeast, if I hated all weather, I'd live in like San Diego or something. But I generally like seasons. So, I can't complain about all of them.
Okay. I want to, this is so interesting. I want to dive right into this. People who have seen the title know we're talking about this. Tell me about the moment that you decided to go AI Vegan. And also like, can you maybe define AI vegan for us?
Joe McKay: For sure. Yeah. So, look. AI Vegan, as I define it, is just basically canceling your ChatGPT and your Claude subscription. Like, no generative AI, no large language models in my business, in my life at all. The moment, so this is funny because I did actually post about this on LinkedIn, but there was literally a moment that was a Friday evening. Been working with a good friend of mine on branding and launching my LinkedIn content agency, and we're just going back and forth on positioning and the business model and all this kind of stuff. And I just had this nagging sensation for a while. This is in June 2025, and things were going really well with the business, which is why I kind of looking to brand it and really scale it, maybe to go back like a few months to sort of the beginning of the relevant part of the story.
In late 2024, I had basically implemented custom GPTs. So AI agents throughout every part of my content production process in my LinkedIn content agency. So, I had AI agents trained on every client, like all the first-party content that I'd created for clients over the previous years. I'd use that information to build these really, really effective, efficient custom GPTs that could spit out content from my interviews with Clients I got.
And at the time, I thought this was like the golden goose, you know, this was the secret to scaling my business to the moon. But what I realized over time, over the next few months of really kind of leaning into that strategy, producing more content kind of faster. The goal posts and like what we focused on as an agency shifted from focusing on what the audience really wants to read and what is going to be engaging for the audience, and started shifting towards, does this kind of pass the test of feeling like it's human written, or like is this going to get approved? You know, we completely lost sight of the objective.
And so I'd been wrestling with this idea of like, what are we doing here? Like, the clients aren't concerned. We're sort of, we're delivering good work, we're doing it fast, we're efficient. But I kind of just played out in my mind, like midterm to long term.
It's only a matter of time before people start asking, How does AI fit into our process? Once we answer that question, it's like, okay. So, you've got an AI agent that's trained on my voice and my content. Like, can you just give me the keys to that tool? And I just struggled to see from a business proposition how I fit in the middle there with having any kind of value add in the service that I provide. And it just didn't sit right. Like, I was just. I listened to your voice note recently about, are you outsourcing your critical thinking to AI? And I was definitely on that, somewhere on that slippery slope.
And so I just texted Matt, a friend of mine who's helping me with my agency positioning. And I was like, AI vegan. I just want to go AI vegan. It was literally a WhatsApp message. I started as a 30-day experiment. Instantly just felt like a weight off my chest. Like it was just a completely new way of looking at things.
And yeah. we're about two months in now, and I'm not going back. This is now kind of part of positioning. This is part of our branding. And here we are.
Joe Casabona: Oh, man. This is really great. I love hearing this because I think there's a lot of… I mean, AI is the thing to have an opinion about right now, right? Like, I fall victim to it too, because I'm trying it more. I'm using it for like vibe coding. But there are like a few non-negotiables where I definitely don't use AI. Right? And that's like my writing because, like you said, it feels like a golden goose. It's almost like…
So, I was a Software Developer for a long time, and something that we talked about a lot when I was in college and grad school was the offshoring, right? So, like, we would outsource a lot of programming to other countries where it could be done cheaper.
But there was a big problem. There was like a cultural rift. So, like, the people we were offshoring to didn't necessarily understand who we were building the software for. It would come back wrong. It would be done overnight in the… Like, it would be nighttime in the United States. And so there were like long lead times.
And I said pretty early on, I'm like, these jobs are going to come back like, it's like anything. Like my dad says, buy cheap, get cheap. Right? If it looks like a shortcut and it feels too good to be true, it probably is. And sounds like you realize that.
I like, you said in my voice note, I realized that, like, AI is really good for a few things, but our most, especially our most critical work, it can't replace us. I feel really strongly about that. People like it will be able to, and I don't. I'm not convinced that it will.
Joe McKay: Look. I agree, and I'm not a technologist, but just from the way large language models work, they are not thinking. Like, I hear a lot of this talk about using AI as a thought partner and all this kind of thing. And, you know, what it's doing is lining up sequences of words that are probabilistically the most likely, and that we can read and we can interpret meaning in those sequences of words.
But, like, it's just not thinking. Like, it doesn't know your client, it doesn't know your business, it doesn't know you. It can line up words in a string that make you think that it knows you. But at least the technology we have available now in a large language model it's not thinking. And I think that's where really the danger is.
And then I think the final point I just wanted to, or the point that I wanted to make here is like, this isn't necessarily like an ethical stance for me. It's like, I'm not judging anyone for using AI. It's really just for me, like, I don't drink alcohol because I tried a whole bunch of different rules and parameters and boundaries to set for myself to be comfortable with the relationship I had with alcohol. And I just, I couldn't stick with them. So I don't do it anymore. Like, that's my only way to solve that problem. And I feel the same about AI. Like, I found myself going down this slippery slope of asking it for more and more help. And rather than having some sort of gray area or different parts of the process or whatever, for me it was just like, I need to go cold turkey. And it's actually. Yeah, it's completely changed my worldview.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. Gosh. That makes so much sense, right? I'm like, I have Type 2 diabetes. And the thing that's really worked for me is having a continuous glucose monitor because that's, you know, because if I let. Oh. Well, you know. I can just have a milkshake here. And then all of a sudden, right, I'm having, like, pizza for lunch and Chinese food for dinner again, right? And a bagel for breakfast. Those are the three New Yorker food groups, right? Big old pizza, Chinese food. So, like, it is a slippery slope, right?
And when you feel like it's… When you're, you can't read the label from inside the bottle, they say, right? And like, when you're in it and you think you're doing great work, it's like, wow. I have generated stuff with AI, and I'm like, this is great. And then I would come back to it days later and be like, this is garbage. Like, this is. They, like Claude said, strategically 14 times in this document. And I, on first blush, I was like, oh, this is. Yeah. This is better than what I would write. It would have been better to write nothing. And I'm glad I didn't ship it that way. Right?
Joe McKay: Yeah. I mean, I think that sensation we get when you prompt your AI and you get something back and you're like, yes, like, this is great. I think for me, I identify myself as like a high-functioning, lazy person. And so I think what that really is, that feeling is, is like, wow, like this task off my list now, you know, like, this job is done and I can get to the next thing.
And I think that's what makes it so kind of tempting, I guess, and such a slippery slope because you're not necessarily critically reviewing what's happening. You're just more like, okay. This is at a point now where I can mentally cross this off my list and get onto the next thing. And as a high-functioning, lazy person, that's a risky place for me to be.
Joe Casabona: And the culture aids that, right? Like, I have an episode coming out with Amanda Goetz where we talked about this. It's like the Hustle culture dictates volume over everything, right? Sacrifice, family time, as long as you make a few extra bucks, right? Oh. I published 100 pieces of content in 90 days. Here's that. But like, so what, right? Like, you can get a bunch of prefab crap or you can get something that's handmade and of actual quality, right? And like, which one do you really, what do you want to be associated with? And I think that's a really, like you said, it's a slippery slope.
Okay. So I want to… Before we get into like the nuts and bolts of your experiment, and how it's changed you and what you're doing now,I want to talk, I want to level set a little bit. So, like tell me what is one tool that you can't run your business without?
Joe Mckay: Linkedin. I run a LinkedIn content agency, so we would not have much to do if LinkedIn wasn't around.
Joe Casabona: This is really interesting to me because I'm like, I would say I'm a social media vegetarian. I know I can't say I'm vegan yet. I don't have any social media apps on my phone, and I have locked myself out of Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. I don't have a Threads account. So, like LinkedIn and Blue sky for what Blue sky is worth, are the only things I can really access.
As somebody who runs a LinkedIn content agency, do you find, you are on the platform a lot, or like have you been able to compartmentalize that? Because it's like work.
Joe McKay: Do you know what? LinkedIn. So, I've said this a few times now, but I really like it. I think of LinkedIn as the One Ring in The Lord of the Rings. It is so powerful, it's incredible. I can't believe the opportunities that are there on LinkedIn and the business I've built, but if you use it too much, you will turn into Gollum.
And I've definitely felt that at different times in my life, in my career. So I'm the same as you. Social media vegetarian, not on any of the others. LinkedIn is a tool of the trade, but it is, you know, this is a trillion-dollar industry that's kind of pointed at the very base of your brain that's designed, engineered to keep you on the platform.
And so I've definitely fallen into that trap every now and then. And I mean part of what I'm trying to do is figure out how do I guess do more of that, in a sense for clients and really keep clients focused on what they have to do in life. Like my number one goal for clients is that they spend as little time as possible on LinkedIn and get on with building their businesses and living their lives, and spending time with their families.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. So important, right? And that's like I definitely struggle with that. I'll post on LinkedIn, and then everyone's like the first hour is the most important, and then like I'm checking and blah, like liking and commenting. And then I'm like, well, my whole day is blown now because everyone says like 8 AM Eastern time is the best time to post, and the first hours, and like I am most productive before 9 AM. So, like, so it's, it's tough to balance. I think I've just decided I'm going to do what works for me, and if the algorithm, you know, hopefully I resonate with people and not the algorithm.
Joe Mckay: Couldn't agree more.
Joe Casabona: So speaking of, walk me through a productive day for you, like what is, how do you determine what you're going to do when you wake up, how long do you work? You know, when do you call it quits? Because usually you have kids, right? You're self-employed, you have kids, and you live in France, which is nice.
Joe Mckay: It's beautiful. Yeah.
This productivity thing, I mean, I really wrestle with this, and it might be because I live in a small French village where, you know, it's farming, like there's a lot of farming around here. Walk down the streets, there's no one here that's worried about AI and LinkedIn or any of that kind of stuff.
And just, I think the French mentality and approach to life is very different to, you know, more the Anglo style of just work, work, work. So, I'm really wrestling with this idea of productivity, what it means for me, what I'm here to do.
And I think one key thing that I've identified is if I can get up to an alarm, like control the time that up and ideally make that early enough that I'm sort of, you know what it's like with young kids. Like the house just comes alive, and it just never stops until everyone's asleep again at the end of the day or everyone's out at school.
So I find getting a window of time for myself in the morning, you know, whether it's for gym or some riding or a run, like just quiet time before the day is kind of dictating terms to me, I think it's a key thing that just sets me up mentally for the rest of the day.
And then in terms of what the actual tasks and stuff look like, I mean, really varies. I think the phase I'm at in my business right now is having unique original thoughts. And for me, that needs like breathing space, that needs silence, it needs quiet time, it needs time away from the screen. Like it sort of almost needs the opposite of productivity in the short term to kind of unearth stuff like delegate to the subconscious and let stuff come out when it's ready to come out.
So, and that can be, that's kind of like my ideal scenario, right? But I've got a business to run. I'VE got clients that need stuff that like life happens. So that's a constant sort of tug of war, you know, trying to carve out space for just boredom, almost just letting thoughts drift in and out while actually getting stuff done.
And then try and make sure I'm done close to the end of school time or just after. Ideally, go and pick up the kids from daycare or from school if I can, around 4:30, and then try and stay. I love your, sitting around. Like don't check emails from the playground.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. Thank you.
Joe McKay: I deleted emails from my phone. No social media apps. Like, it's just, phone is locked away and evenings are ideally just family time.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. This is, I don't know if this is like the Baader-Meinhof effect at work. I don't know. Do you know the Baader-Meinhof effect? It's like you see something and then you keep seeing it. So it's like this thing that hasn't entered your consciousness. It does. Then you see it everywhere. It's like a song on the radio, for example.
But this idea of like being bored and not having screen time and like, not necessarily doing like a nine-to-five thing, but like finding pockets that work for you, I feel like that's been coming up a lot lately. It's definitely something I've been thinking about. Like when my kids are like, I'm bored. I'm like, good. Be bored. Like boredom spawns creativity, and like you said, I think that's really important.
And so, you know, I do this, you know, I try to wake up early. That's because that's my, according to my aura ring, that's my chronotype or whatever. I'm like a morning person, which is, I didn't need the aura ring to tell me. So like, I do try to work in the morning, and then at night, like I can't even read a book at night. I'm just like, I'm kicked. So, like, I'll usually, in the summer, I'll have like a cigar and have the Yankee game on or just kind of like stare into the middle distance, right? And just like, like enjoy not staring at a blue light in my face. I think that's.
Joe McKay: I have no idea what an aura ring is, but for me, it's like a symbol of something that, for me, as someone who is active on LinkedIn, I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn specifically. And that is just a real mecca for this kind of productivity hustle culture. Like there's all these hacks and here's how you drink a liter of water when you wake up and, like, don't have coffee for the first two hours and, like, all these rules and regulations on how to optimize your life and technological aids, like your Fitbit and your aura ring and your whatever else, like your whoop bracelet.
I'm just going, what's my body saying? You know, like, like just listening to my body and something Mum always told me when I was a kid, like, just listen to your body, you know, and if you feel like sleeping in, like, if you really need to, if the alarm goes off and you're like, I'm wiped for whatever reason, you know, hit snooze, turn it off. Like, sleep in, and I'll do that. I'm getting better at, like, giving myself permission to actually listen to myself rather than the influencer on LinkedIn or the piece of tech that's, like, that beeping at me. You know what I mean? I think that's kind of a place where I am right now, just trying to get my head around that and live true to myself and what my body really needs.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. I think so. To quote the great philosopher Roxette, right? Listen to your heart when it's. I love that song. I'm sorry to anybody who's, who, I just got stuck in their head, but I think this is another part of, like, the AI vegan thing, right? Like, I thought it was really interesting.
And so I got one, and my friend, Cal was like, just like, beware that Like, don't take the ring's opinion over how you're actually feeling. Right? And there will be some days where it's like, hey, are you feeling okay? Like, you're showing mine. And I'm like, I feel fine. And I'm like, am I sick, though? Like, my ring is telling me I might be sick. Am I sick? And I'm like, what? What's wrong with me? Or, like, you know, oh, you slept amazingly. Like, go for the gold. And I'm like, I feel like garbage right now. Like, what? So you're absolutely right. I like the data, but you cannot let it. Like, you can't let it supersede what, like, our bodies have been telling us for, like, millions of years. Right? Right. Hundreds of thousands of years. Millions of years. Like, how would it feel? We shouldn't ignore that. Right? And it's just like, outsourcing critical thinking to AI. Like, we know how we think and how our clients think, and we have lived experiences that AI can't possibly have. And I think that's really important.
Joe McKay: Absolutely. Nick Bennett, who's great in, you know, works with solopreneurs, and I saw his analogy around that.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. Solopreneur guy.
Joe McKay: Yeah, yeah. Saw his analogy around like the GPS, you know, and time got like my dad would just drive around Sydney and just knew where to go. We had a street directory in the car in case, but he just knew, just had a sense of direction, you know what I mean? Whereas we now just have just plug in, punch in your GPS, and like just follow that rather than actually kind of sensing this thing.
So, you know, I don't want to sound like the old man just yelling at a cloud and like trying to go and live off the grid and live under a rock. But I'm in a process at the moment of like just consciously sort of stripping out some of the technological influences, I guess, in my life that are. Because we do like, we love data. We gravitate towards the things that's measurable and like attribution and all this kind of stuff in the marketing game, like that is just. That is ripe for that as well. But it takes you away from like, the gut check, I think. And so I'm trying to get a little bit more back into that.
Joe Casabona: Yeah, that's so true. I saw Nick post that and I'm like, God, I'm so mad. I didn't think of that. So, because like, you are so right. When we moved when I was a kid, my dad would just drive us all around for a couple of hours, and I'm like, what are we doing? He's like, he's like, we're learning the town. I'm like, what? How are we gonna get home?
And now I've lived where I live for like seven years, and I still put the GPS in no matter what. And I tell myself I know how to get there, but like, what if there's traffic, right? And it's like, that feels dumb because I know how to get to my kids' daycare, and I still punch it into the GPS because God forbid I sit in like five minutes of traffic. Right? Like, yeah. So yeah, it's such a great analogy. Shout out to Nick. I'll link to him and everything we're talking about in the show notes, which you can find over at streamlined.fm or in the description wherever you're consuming this content.
Okay. So, let's talk about your process a little bit, and then we'll get into the AI vegan experiment you manage. So is it you and contractors? You and employees? You and a partner? What's the business structure like?
Joe McKay: Yeah. So, it is me and a small team of freelancers all around the world who have different responsibilities in the business. And that was a big mindset shift for me. Like, I very much went into that solopreneur. I wore that solopreneur badge really proudly. Like, I do everything. It's just me. You get me pretty soon in this line of work, you know, with just a rolling weekly deadline of, like, you have to ship content every single week. I found myself just in this content factory and wasn't loving it.
And so that's where I've started to embrace the agency mindset more, where it's like, I can assemble a team of experts to do better work than I could do on my own. And, yeah. Give better results for clients while not having to do everything myself. So that's been a switch that I've made recently, but purely a freelancer set up.
Joe Casabona: And that's so tough, right? It's like. Cause, like, you know, I tell people I coach, and I've gotten the question a couple of times, am I getting you, or am I getting someone on your team? Right? And, like, when you are a solopreneur and you build a brand around you, people will want you. And so that mindset's really important because, like, how much do you want to scale, right? And how many clients do you want to turn away?
And I think, like, you know, yeah, having a good team, automating and delegating is the way to reasonably scale and still kind of, you know, like, I decided a long time ago, I don't want proper employees. Like, I don't want someone else's livelihood to really depend on me. That's just, like, not the kind of business I want to run. Like, I don't want to have to, like, worry that I can't put an employee's food on the table because I'm taking a week off because I don't feel like working or whatever. Right. Like, so, yeah, that's a tough thing that I think that's a whole other conversation. But, I think a lot of people listening to that will resonate with that struggle like, how do I scale without losing the solopreneurship? Will people want me, or will people who want me get me in some way?
So I'm really interested in how you manage this. Right? Because delegation is a really hard thing for a lot of solopreneurs. When you, like, onboard a client, how do you assign people? Is it like, tell me a little bit about that process. That's really interesting to me.
Joe McKay: Yeah. For sure. And this is kind of related to the previous point. Like the key thing for me with clients is I'm still, what I realize I enjoy most about the work, and probably my lane of genius is the interview process. Like is taking those ideas, the stories, the threads, the anecdote,s and just like pulling on those and excavating the content from the client. Like that's the bit that I want to do as much of as possible. I'm the only one who does that.
I'm actually not the world's best writer, you know. So what I do now is I find people who with a really good strategy from me and like I still lead content strategy, lead the interview and then it's like with a good strategy and a good interview, like good raw materials, have a team of great writers that then actually polish those stories up and get them ready for like, for LinkedIn. So it really plays into my strengths, gets me doing more of what I'm good at, and also improves the result, the end result for clients as well. Because I don't have to write all this content all the time.
Joe Casabona: I really want the listeners to marinate in that for a minute. Like you are doing the thing that you like to do best. What's really interesting is like you built a business that requires writing, but like it's the part before the writing you like the best until you've decided to do that. I think that's so awesome because I think a lot of solopreneurs feel like they need to do everything, or like I need to have my hand on the deliverable in some way, shape, or form.
I love building automations and building the system,s and like that's the sales. Probabl,y sales and marketing is like my weakest part of the game. And so I'm working with people now to help me with that. But like we started a business to be happy in our work, and so you should do the thing that makes you happy.
Joe McKay: Yeah. And so look, I would say that this is probably one of my superpowers, is that lazy bit, right? Like I am, I'm very good at figuring out ways to not have to do the stuff I don't want to be doing. I'm willing to pay money to solve those problems and have those tasks taken care of. Like my lawn out the back, like all this, like whatever it is. I think that's actually a gift as a kind of an entrepreneur because I've got no qualms really with like finding experts who are better than the thing that I don't want to be doing and getting their help.
I do. Yeah. Have to delegate. What it's really forced me to do is systemize the framework, like the approach and really put guardrails on. Like, here's how we, I call it the campfire method. You know, this is our method for developing a LinkedIn content strategy, and this is how we execute on that plan, so I can brief more effectively. And, you know, the reality is I still do review stuff that's written, you know, I provide feedback. I close that loop and then, you know, maintain that client relationship. But I've got people around me that are really in their lanes of genius as well, doing the heavy lifting.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. That's great. So one more, I think one more question around this is how do you, you know, let's say like, I hire you to do my LinkedIn content creation. You interview me, do you send me to the freelancer who you think would best capture my voice? Or like, is it like whoever's open, like, does everybody kind of write the same? Like, what does that look like? Because like, that, like, nuts and bolts bit, I think, is something a lot of people like. I think others think that's boring. I think that's such a crucial and cool thing.
Joe McKay: Yeah. No. Look. Working with a growing roster of freelancers, and a lot of it plays into what other types of content they have written? Like, do they know specific industries quite well? You know, there's often jargon, insights, industry background that they're going to need. So it's not a huge roster of freelancers that I have, but I'm definitely trying to figure out who knows the client's space most effectively. Capacity definitely plays a part, but my primary goal is figure out who knows the client's space the best best, because what we try and do is really like, I think that 101 content and a lot of my competitors out there will be focusing on, like, tell personal stories, you know, and share a photo of yourself. Like all that very kind of surface-level stuff, which actually has a role in building your personal brand. Right, we do that. But for me, the revenue, the leads, the business opportunities come from that 201, 301, 401 level content. You need to go deeper.
And so I want to try and find the writer that's most likely to understand the client's space to be able to get to those deeper levels. That's a big part of my job in the interview as well. That's kind of the key decision-making criteria that I have around which freelancer to put on which client.
Joe Casabona: That's so key. I hired like a ghostwriter, I guess, to help me make more content for my blog a few years ago. And like, they kind of just wrote about what they wanted to write about instead of writing about like things in my voice. And I'm like, that's, I'm like, I'm paying you to write like me. It doesn't have to be me, but like, you're writing like you and things you want to like. It just didn't work workout. So like, that's a really important part of it. Right. Which is also probably why you went AI vegan and you're not going to go back. Right? So, like, tell me, you said that you built all of these custom GPTs. What did you have to, when you turned them off, what happened?
Joe Mckay: Yeah. Look. I made that decision for myself. Like, I don't want to use ChatGPT, and I don't want my agency to use ChatGPT. I at the time just had one account manager who was a really crucial part of my team, who was essentially the key person kind of running the machines, I guess, like working with the bots. So I had to sit down with her and explain the position. We'd had a bunch of chats just about some of the ethics around AI and our experiences using and all that kind of thing.
And you know, she's amazing. Like, she does really great work. It's a great partnership, and she was just completely on board with it. And it's, you know, it's slower, like it takes longer, but we both are just kind of on the same page with that. And then that just became kind of a hire, like one of the criteria in the hiring process for engaging freelancers. It's like we are an AI vegan agency. It's probably enforceable. Like, I can probably tell most of the time if you're going to use large language models, you could probably also get stuff past me. But I just, it's kind of just a position of like, just don't be silly. Like we don't use large language models. And so you're either in with that or you're out. And it's just part of the process.
Joe Casabona: And I think that's like, really? I mean, for people who are using it right now, I think that's like a pretty hard line in the sand, I think. Right. Like if you tell somebody that and they're all in on AI, like maybe they're really Hard up and they'll tell you that they want the job anyway. But I'd have a hard time taking a job where they're like, where my process is not right. Like right up front and you're like, hey, this is not our process. Right.
Joe McKay: Well, I have to say the most interesting thing about this whole experiment has been just how many. I did not expect this at all. I'd say dozens, if not hundreds, of creatives, of writers, of illustrators came out of the woodwork on LinkedIn when I kind of, I wrote up a bit of like a manifesto kind of deck around this AI veganism thing. And there are so many like-minded people out there who just don't want it, you know, it's so, it's kind of almost become a talent pool for me as well. It's like, you know, this is what we're about. And so if it's not part of your process, this is the place for you. Like, you know, we have work, we want to support great writers and great, great creatives. So yeah, we're not going to be a fit for a lot of suppliers out there. And that's, you know, that's part of the course.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. And the other thing I want to key in on is, like you said, it's slower. Right. And I think that's like I was having, well, I wasn't having an argument with my wife's uncle. He was just talking as he's one to do. I don't think he listens to this show, but he'll know I'm talking about him.
Joe McKay: He does it now.
Joe Casabona: He does. Yeah. And he was like talking about how, oh yeah, I go to these restaurants and I always complain and I get the free food and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, how could. He's like, how could they charge 20 bucks for a burger? I' dude, if you want a $2 burger, go to McDonald's. Like, if you want something good and decent, you should pay for it. And like, if you want the quality of something, then it's going to take time. So like you can have like fast and cheap. That's fine. It's not going to be as good as slow and a little pricier.
Joe McKay: Yeah. Good. Fast. Cheap. Choose two of them.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. And I think like the problem with AI now that's a, maybe a little too strong of a statement. But like people think that they can get good, fast, and cheap while still kind of charging a premium for it. I think like you, it feels like a golden goose, but it's not.
Joe McKay: Dude, that window is just closing. And I was really of the mindset of like, I could either, like, when you take your car to the mechanic, you know, and there's that information asymmetry. Like, I knew that I was right at the cutting edge of where this technology, like, how to use this technology. And I knew there would be plenty of clients out there that would just never even register. And so I knew that, like there's a window where a whole lot of people are going to make a whole lot of money in a short space of time doing this. Like kind of sticking a consultancy layer on top of ChatGPT. And I was like, I could try and fill my boots during that window of time and just know that I'm on kind of a sinking ship and just never really feel good about it. Or I can just opt out of the whole thing and figure out a, like put those constraints around myself and use that to figure out a creative way to go forward.
And that's kind of where I've landed. But I have no doubt there's going to be a lot of people that do really well out of that information asymmetry of like what's possible with AI and just helping people who don't have that same know-how. And that's, you know, that's the world we're in. There's nothing wrong with that. Really.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. Yeah. I do think it's like the people who are viewing it or anything as like a get-rich-quick scheme is almost like the same people who like take creatine or whatever to work out and build muscle. Like, you're going to just have to do that the rest of your life or you're going to end up like really fat and unhealthy. Right. Because the moment you stop doing the shortcut thing, it is going to go the other way. I like, I'm really bullish about that.
So, Okay. So, I would say, you would say the quality of the work got better. Did anything break when you went AI vegan?
Joe McKay: Nothing has broken. Nothing has broken. I think what kind of broke was like my hypnosis with like just having that tab open on my computer all the time.
Joe Casabona: Yeah.
Joe McKay: Honestly. And I, and I'm not saying this just to, yeah, be super like unrealistically positive. Like, it's just been one of the best decisions I've made in business. It's We figured out a way from a delivery side of things, you know, that just means managing timelines better with clients, and it's just nothing but upside like, we, Yeah, it's probably putting a limit on our growth potential, you know, and how much scale there is and at what speed we can scale. But from a day in doubt point of view, nothing is broken. I just feel mentally, mentally a lot clearer, I guess.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. It reminds me of, so I have had very unhealthy habits growing up. And so, like, like, I mentioned, I have diabetes. When I was diagnosed, and, like, I cut out carbs completely, and I, like, ate a healthy lunch and then wasn't falling asleep at my desk. I was like, Oh. Is this what it's like to not feel like garbage all the time? Like, this is so nice.
Okay. So I like to ask this of every parent. How has being a parent actually made you more efficient in your business?
Joe McKay: It's given me a reason not to work more, you know, it's given me a reason not to just stay plugged in into the evenings on weekends. I think it's just really increased the opportunity cost of working, I guess, is how I would describe it. You know, there are little ones out there that would love nothing more than just to have a wrestle or kick the ball in the garden or jump in the pool. And so it's just brought perspective. It's like, do that while they're young. I think that would be the most powerful influence my parenting has had.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. So good, right? If you have nothing else and you just have work, it's easy to work from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed too late. Right. But I like you, I assume, consider myself very lucky that I get to work from home, and if I want to see my kids, I can go upstairs. And it's just. I think it's really important because, like, parenting is also hard, and, like, there are moments where you get super frustrated and you're like, I'm trying to record leaving. Leave me alone.
But, like, it's had such a net positive on my life. Right. I mean, this is why I have my whole mission, right? Because I think, like, I probably would have become, like, a hustle bro and been like, oh, yeah, work is everything. I love solving problems. My job is my hobby. Right. That's like the saddest thing that anybody could say to me. Like, so I agree wholeheartedly. I'm really glad you said that because it is really important.
So how do you kind of draw boundaries to protect family time? I think we touched on this a little bit, but, like, you know, what's the nitty gritty of that look like?
Joe McKay: This is really hard. And it' something that it does cause some friction sometimes because, like, oh, I want to put my family first. Like, I want to put my kids first. I want to spend time with my kids. But, like, as an entrepreneur, like, as someone building a business, like, there are some times when you're just like zoned in, you know, like, it'll be a morning and I'm like, I just really want to get up into the attic, which is where my office is, and like, I just want to do this XYZ thing.
And there is a spilled bowl of cereal, or there's like a drop off that needs to happen, or like there's something in the way of that. You know, you just feel like you need to strike when the iron's hot and you're like, oh, like, I know this is deep down, like, this is what I'm here for. Like, I'm doing it for the kids, and I want to be with the kids.
But sometimes, day to day or like, yeah, 4:30, they're running the door from school and you're just like, finally getting into a groove of like, writing something and you're just like, hang on a second, just give me 20 minutes.
So I do actually sometimes lock the door from the inside here. I'm up in the attic on the third floor, and I just sometimes lock the door and just say, guys, give me 15 minutes. But you know, overall, like, I would say eight times out of 10, it's just that is part of doing business as a solopreneur, as someone who works from home, is like, the kids are gonna win. Like, I'm just gonna embrace that, you know, and try not beat myself up about it and remind myself of really the priorities in life.
But there are definitely some moments of kind of agitation because we don't have this separation. You know, you don't just jump in the car and then, you know, you can't be distracted, you can't be tempted. You don't hear kids laughing. Like, I think that's one thing that I love about working from home. I love not commuting, but it definitely, you know, those two spaces, those two lives, like, butt up against each other and sort of there's a bit of friction there sometimes. So that's a bit of a challenge for me. Do you find something similar?
Joe Casabona: Absolutely. Like, I mean, like, when I'm in. Because, like, I'm like getting in this zone for me is like the two weeks. This is a baseball analogy. I'm really sorry, but, like, there's like there are players who will be like super hot for two weeks of a six-month season. And like when I'm in the zone, like, it feels like that, it's like I'm going to get hot for a minute and never again. So like, I need to do this right now. Or like I'm in my basement, I can't lock the door because the laundry room is also here.
But there is like a red light outside my office. Like when I'm doing stuff, but like, you know, when the kids are playing right above me, it sounds like, sounds like chaos. Or like when someone's screaming, or like my wife is losing her temper. She gets mad at me for going upstairs. She's like, you're supposed to be working. And I'm like, I can't hear what's happening and not come upstairs. So like, it is really tough.
And then like, on the other hand, how do you handle business emergencies during family time? Cause like, I'll say, like, we went to Disney World at the beginning of May and I spent like a solid few weeks making sure all of my clients knew I was like Persona non grata for that week.
Didn't bring a laptop or an iPad. Couldn't check my email. Well, I checked my email, but never sent an email. Mostly because like if I came home to an Inbox of like 600 emails, none of them would get read. I'd just be like, well, the important ones will come back. So like. But I had a friend who, if there was like an emergency, like he was getting access to my email, my VA. But like, that's not something that I do on a daily basis. It's not like I text my friend and I'm like, Hey. I'm going for a walk. If emergencies happen, you're on call. So like, how do you hit me and stuff like that?
Joe McKay: Yeah. Do you know what? I. First of all, I would say my wife is incredibly supportive in this. Like if, you know, if it is dinner time or something happens, and like I need to quickly duck up and solve something, she's amazing at supporting me in doing that. I think that's. I couldn't do it without her.
I also just have a really, I think maybe healthy dose of perspective of like, I'm not saving lives, you know, so if your post went up with the wrong video or the wrong caption or there's a typo, like, I don't know, like insert whatever, you know, business emergency, I could have, like, I just, I'll handle it when it's like when I'm back online kind of thing. I really try not to have my phone around me when I'm, you know, not working.I try not to have my phone around me when I am working as well. But you know, I just kind of go, business emergency is just never going to be that big of a deal. I think if I was planning a long holiday, I'd love to go to Disney World. I can't wait for our kids to be old enough for Disney World. But yeah, man, business emergency just isn't in my vocabulary. Really.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. That's so good. Like to reference my friend again. I was like, will you do this? He's like, you understand that none of your clients have any emergencies, right? And I'm like, I know, but like if their site goes down or whatever, like there's like still a couple of people whose sites I manage heavy quotes on. Manage, you know, like they probably would like their site to go back up, right? But yes, totally get it. Like, no, my wife's a nurse, right? Like, and when she has a bad day and I have a bad day, I'm like, you take the cake, right? And she always says like, no, don't, you know, downplay what you do. And I'm like, no, let's. The worst thing that will happen if I mess up is that someone loses like a few thousand dollars. No one's gonna die because of my mistake. Yeah, I think that's really, really important. We do the work that we love, that we think is important, but it is, you know, I think of that quote that's like your kid's not gonna remember the work that you did for a client. Like they're gonna remember that you weren't playing with them cause you were working late or whatever. Some, that's like a butchering of that quote. But the sentiments there.
Joe McKay: Yeah. No. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.
Joe Casabona: Yeah. So I want to wrap up with this is, I'm calling it audible actually because like real life vegans get their protein through plant-based or replacement things. Do you use, I don't want to call them AI tools, but like transcription, right, like AI transcription. Like are you using anything like that?
Joe McKay: Yeah, so we have Fireflies. Like the interview with clients is the key. Like that is the source of all our content. So we absolutely need to get that transcript transcribed. I use Fireflies for that. I'm sure there's AI tools like Plugged into my Gmail and all that kind of stuff as well. Really, where I… Yeah. My AI vegan definition is just around generative AI and large language models in kind of creating stuff. That's where we draw the line.
Joe Casabona: That's like, because I'm like thinking like you, I'm like, I think I'm ready to save myself like 60 bucks a month and get rid of these subscriptions, right? But like something I absolutely rely on is Whisper Memos, which is like an app that you just like you can talk into your watch and it'll transcribe it and summarize it and then email it to you. But like the other thing that I use it for is it'll take the transcript, send it to Zapier, and then Zapier will convert it into a Todoist list thanks to like ChatGPT.
So like at the end of my day I like brain dump. I talk on my watch or my phone for three minutes, and then like I have a to-do list in Todoist and like. But you know, I think like you said like that's like a helpful tool, right? That's not the thing it would replace, is nothing. Like I would just be like, I hope I don't forget these things.
Joe McKay: But dude, like, I mean, you've been running your business, you must have run your business before these tools existed, right? Like we, I mean, man, I've got a set of Post-its. I know it's not like yes, ideal, you know, I've just got scribble stuff down and try and yeah, systemize, delegate. It's sort of. I just go, we lived and operated and were successful before all these things existed. You know what I mean?
Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. This is, I'm really glad you're pushing back on this because you're right, like especially before kids, I would journal at the end of my day, right? Like, and I still have a notebook and I journal, I think where this has been helpful. And again, I don't need the AI part of it, right? I think I could just talk into Voice Memos and like get a transcript later. It's like if I'm working up until the moment I have to go to pick up, and I'm like, I hope I don't forget. Like that's where like I will just like hop in my car and talk for a few minutes.
But like you're right. Like I don't need the like the AI tool is just an add on. Actually, Todoist has rolled out, I think it's called Ramble, a feature they're beta testing which basically does that. So, yeah. So, I mean like, my little AI tool is probably getting Sherlocked, which is fine by me. The fewer dependencies I have on other things, the better. Yeah. So I did want to ask that. It's like, how are you getting the protein in your diet of AI Veganism, I guess.
Joe Mckay: Productivity protein.
Joe Casabona: Yes. Yes.
Okay. So, wrapping up here, there's one thing we didn't get to that I suspect will be the answer to this question. But, like, what's one system change that would save our listeners the most time right now? Like, what's something that you do that is just so time-saving? Obviously, it's not going to rely on AI, which is great because I think a lot of people are saying their AI things like I do right now.
Joe McKay: Yeah. What is one thing that would save time? I think, for me, like, still, like, going from that sort of soloprenobia to like, getting some support, like getting someone in your corner, like a freelancer, like an assistant, like another brain, I think has been massive for me. Like, I don't want to run a huge. Yeah. I don't want to have employees and pay pensions and all that kind of thing.
But having someone that's on your corner that you can actually get help with and a real person, I think, has been a game changer for me. It's also made like, the business journey a lot less lonely, I guess, knowing there's someone there that has your back and that can help. So, you know, whatever capacity that looks like, I think it has been helpful. And even if that's not like a paid thing, but just actually finding your community and just bouncing ideas, it may not save you time in the short term.
But for me, I've realized that what I need to optimize for is not my time, it's actually my energy. It's like we've all had those days and weeks where, like, there's nothing on the calendar. Like, the kids aren't here. Like, I've got time. And then for whatever reason, you just like, oh, just, I'm not up for it. Or you get distracted or you go down the wrong rabbit hole.
Joe Casabona: Yeah.
Joe Mckay: Whereas when you've got energy, if you give me full strength energy and 20 minutes, I'll get more done that, like six hours at, like, oh, I'm just. I just wish I was outside, you know?
Joe Casabona: Yeah.
Joe McKay: So, yeah. More than time. I look at energy these days in my business.
Joe Casabona: Oh. I like that a lot. That's a really good tip. So here's what I'll say, because you said a real person. I have seen multiple posts and I've got talked about the AI coach. Anybody who's using an AI coach you need to know it's not a real coach. Right. I think that's really so like having a person, a coach, or a mastermind group, or a co-owner, a co-founder, with you, partner, whatever. I can't express enough how important that is.
I'm going to point people to a couple of other resources because we didn't get to them in this interview. But you have all. So you talked about your campfire framework. You also talked about a client's questions or Q&A database. And so I'll just like. Do you have like a blog post, or should people just find you on LinkedIn for that? Because I think those are really interesting things that will help replace the AI ideation with actual helpful things. Right?
Joe McKay: Yeah. For sure. So these. Well, at the time we record these, I've got rough working versions of these. So find me on LinkedIn. I think we can link my LinkedIn in the show notes. I can definitely get them out, but working on some more kind of polished assets that can be used to. Yeah, like vegan thought stars I guess like to get back to some of your critical thinking and. And yeah, ideate a little bit differently without just prompting GPT more than happy to help people with that.
Joe Casabona: Awesome. Well, Joe, this has been great. Thank you so much. I will definitely link your LinkedIn in the show notes. I think is the dot info. Is that also a website? Do you have another website that you go to?
Joe McKay: joemmckay.info links to my beehive. Like my, yeah. My weekly newsletter. Yeah.
Joe Casabona: Sweet. All right, so I will make sure we get all of that in the show notes. Joe, thanks so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it.
Joe McKay: Likewise, Joe. It was really good to chat, man. Glad you're well.
Joe Casabona: Awesome. And thank you all for listening. I really appreciate it. And until next time. I hope you find some space in your week.